Discussion:
talk.origins access
(too old to reply)
jillery
2020-10-31 21:30:20 UTC
Permalink
If you can read this, that shows I can use aioe news server.

I am posting this here because the aioe contacts page says aioe help
requests need to be posted here.

The newsgroup talk.origins is in aioe's group directory. However,
when I try to post to talk.origins, the post never appears.

Is there something special I need to do to post to that froup via
aioe?
Ralph Fox
2020-10-31 23:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by jillery
If you can read this, that shows I can use aioe news server.
I am posting this here because the aioe contacts page says aioe help
requests need to be posted here.
The newsgroup talk.origins is in aioe's group directory. However,
when I try to post to talk.origins, the post never appears.
Is there something special I need to do to post to that froup via
aioe?
The newsgroup talk.origins is a _moderated_ newsgroup.

This means: When you post to talk.origins, your news server sends your
post to the moderator for approval. Your post will only appear in the
newsgroup when the moderator has approved it.

* If the moderator approves your post within minutes, then your post
will appear in the newsgroup in minutes.

* If the moderator takes two days to approve your post, then it will
take two days for your post to appear in the newsgroup.

* If the moderator does not approve your post at all, then your post
will not appear in the newsgroup.
--
Kind regards
Ralph
jillery
2020-11-01 00:36:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ralph Fox
Post by jillery
If you can read this, that shows I can use aioe news server.
I am posting this here because the aioe contacts page says aioe help
requests need to be posted here.
The newsgroup talk.origins is in aioe's group directory. However,
when I try to post to talk.origins, the post never appears.
Is there something special I need to do to post to that froup via
aioe?
The newsgroup talk.origins is a _moderated_ newsgroup.
This means: When you post to talk.origins, your news server sends your
post to the moderator for approval. Your post will only appear in the
newsgroup when the moderator has approved it.
* If the moderator approves your post within minutes, then your post
will appear in the newsgroup in minutes.
* If the moderator takes two days to approve your post, then it will
take two days for your post to appear in the newsgroup.
* If the moderator does not approve your post at all, then your post
will not appear in the newsgroup.
I'm sure you're correct for most moderated newsgroups, but you're not
quite correct for T.O. Yes, T.O. is a moderated newsgroup, but the
moderation is done by computer, which filters using but a few standard
rules.

I can say for a fact that almost all posts to T.O., including all of
my posts, via a variety of news servers, with but two exceptions to my
knowledge, have always appeared in the newsgroup.

One exception is Eternal-September, which has a very recent dispute
with the human moderator wrt proper procedure for handling bounced
posts, and so unconditionally bounces all messages to T.O. with an
error.

And the other exception is aioe, which accepts messages to T.O.
without error, but they still don't appear in the newsgroup. And so
my original post above.

So a relevant questions here is: Is aioe in fact forwarding messages
to T.O.? Other posters have also reported their attempts to send
posts to T.O. via aioe without success. My impression is if you tried
to post to T.O., you would also fail via aioe but not via other news
servers.

If my impression is correct, what reasons might aioe have for failing
to forward messages to T.O.?
--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
Aioe
2020-11-02 10:25:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by jillery
I'm sure you're correct for most moderated newsgroups
could you provide me a MESSAGE-ID of a missing article?

a news server records articles per message-id, i need it to search in my
logs
jillery
2020-11-02 11:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
Post by jillery
I'm sure you're correct for most moderated newsgroups
could you provide me a MESSAGE-ID of a missing article?
a news server records articles per message-id, i need it to search in my
logs
I made two tests, one to alt.test.group:

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 16:38:41 -0400
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>

which appeared almost instantly,

and shortly after, to talk.origins:

Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 16:45:02 -0400
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>

which never appeared.

Thank you for looking into this. If you need, I would be glad to send
another test post to talk.origins via aioe.
--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
Aioe
2020-11-04 10:09:28 UTC
Permalink
i'm investigating...
Aioe
2020-11-04 10:31:46 UTC
Permalink
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<***@beagle.ediacara.org> (expanded from <talk-***@ediacara.org>):
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For your convenience, the complete rejected message follows:

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To: talk-***@moderators.isc.org
Path: .POSTED.fNzPnky8D1SsfdiqNqn8mA.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail
From: jillery <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: eternal-september
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 19:22:17 -0500
Organization: What are you looking for?
Lines: 75
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
References: <***@news.alt.net> <rnqlfd$16v$***@news.mixmin.net>
<***@4ax.com>
<***@4ax.com>
<***@news.supernews.com>
<***@4ax.com>
<***@mid.individual.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: fNzPnky8D1SsfdiqNqn8mA.user.gioia.aioe.org
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On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:51:13 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
=20
=20
=20
On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 21:14:37 -0700, Pro =
=20
get an error message when I try to post here from =
eternal-september.org
=20
Ok, what was the error message? Did you google it?
=20
=20
=20
"Postings to "talk.origins" are not allowed here"
=20
It's an error message Wolfgang from eternal-september only =
recently
created. Googling it provides nothing relevant to this situation.
=20
Until Wolfgang and DIG agree on how to handle bounced posts, E-S =
is
likely to continue to automatically and unconditionally bounce =
*all*
posts it receives with a destination to T.O.
Herr Wolfgang's message seems clear, bearing no indication of the =
existence
of a software problem. "Not allowed". Or maybe you're just making =
up a
wolfgang story to frighten the children.
=20
You don't have to keep proving you're a willfully stupid troll.
=20
Of course he does. It=E2=80=99s all he has.
=20
=20
You are correct in the sense that Glenn displays a compulsion, of
being driven by an irresistible urge to prove his willful stupidity.
=20
My comment is in the sense that he has proved his willful stupidity
many times over, to the degree that it can't be reasonably doubted,
which make additional proof redundant.
All that is true, as what RonO and Wolffan say is true. However, it=20
seems to me that the main thing that Glenn wants is attention, and you=20
three are amply providing it. Wouldn't it be more effective simply to=20
ignore his posts completely?
We all know by now that he's ignorant and proud of it, that he will=20
always run away from the Top Six, and that he's a Master Baiter, so
why=20
give him what he wants?
You may be right, but my impression is, his motivation is to read his
own nonsense. If that is so, ignoring him would do nothing to
discourage, and silence may even give him the impression of tacit
acceptance.

--=20
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Aioe
2020-11-04 10:35:54 UTC
Permalink
i forgot to add some explication.

When my server tries to send your message to the talt.origins moderation
bot, which is a SMTP server, it bounces the message with the following
string

<***@beagle.ediacara.org> (expanded from <talk-***@ediacara.org>):
can't create user output file. Command output: procmail: Error while
writing to "/var/mail/to2"

it sounds like an error made by ediacara mail admin, you have to contact
talk.origin moderator and beagle.ediacara.org admin.
kensi
2020-11-04 11:20:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
When my server tries to send your message to the talt.origins moderation
bot, which is a SMTP server, it bounces the message with the following
string
can't create user output file. Command output: procmail: Error while
writing to "/var/mail/to2"
it sounds like an error made by ediacara mail admin, you have to contact
talk.origin moderator and beagle.ediacara.org admin.
There was a post in e-s.support complaining of a similar problem over there.

It looks like the talk.origins moderator has dropped off the face of the
'net and allowed their mailbox to become full (or even the filesystem
it's on).

Is there any sort of RFC or other procedure for regaining access to a
moderated group if the only moderator net.dies?
--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here." ~Checkmate
Winston
2020-11-04 16:52:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by kensi
Is there any sort of RFC or other procedure for regaining access to a
moderated group if the only moderator net.dies?
Yes. There's something called a Moderator Vacancy Investigation (MVI).
My impression (and I might be wrong) is that one submits it to big-8.org
(and/or news.groups? I'm not sure). They attempt to contact the
moderator and try themselves posting to the newsgroup. If their post
doesn't go through and the moderator doesn't respond within some length
of time, action is taken. IIRC (and it's been quite a while since I
last saw one happen), the first action is to solicit a new moderator,
and only if that fails, delete the group. If the group is known to be
robo-moderated, mention that to them and maybe they'll reduce the
non-reponse timeout.

In any case, USENET "Moderator Vacancy Investigation" is what you're
looking for.
-WBE
jillery
2020-11-04 13:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
i forgot to add some explication.
When my server tries to send your message to the talt.origins moderation
bot, which is a SMTP server, it bounces the message with the following
string
can't create user output file. Command output: procmail: Error while
writing to "/var/mail/to2"
it sounds like an error made by ediacara mail admin, you have to contact
talk.origin moderator and beagle.ediacara.org admin.
IIUC the above means aioe received and forwarded via SMTP the target
message, but the T.O. server rejected it because "can't create user
output file".

I don't understand why that problem would affect only messages sent
from aioe, or more precisely, not sent from Supernews also.

However, I assume the T.O. moderator will understand. I will forward
the above information to him. This may be the key to solving this
problem. Thank you again for looking into this.
--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
Aioe
2020-11-04 16:11:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by jillery
IIUC the above means aioe received and forwarded via SMTP the target
message, but the T.O. server rejected it because "can't create user
output file".
yes, it's right
Post by jillery
I don't understand why that problem would affect only messages sent from
aioe, or more precisely, not sent from Supernews also.
eternal-september has the same issue, supernews and individual seems able
to post.
it looks like a mail routing problem
Post by jillery
However, I assume the T.O. moderator will understand. I will forward
the above information to him. This may be the key to solving this
problem. Thank you again for looking into this.
please, could you report me what he replies?
jillery
2020-11-04 21:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
Post by jillery
IIUC the above means aioe received and forwarded via SMTP the target
message, but the T.O. server rejected it because "can't create user
output file".
yes, it's right
Post by jillery
I don't understand why that problem would affect only messages sent from
aioe, or more precisely, not sent from Supernews also.
eternal-september has the same issue, supernews and individual seems able
to post.
it looks like a mail routing problem
This email explains the situation with E-S:
*********************
From: <***@weyand-hg.de>
Date: Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 9:09 AM
Subject: AW: eternal-september error message
To: Jill Pillory <***@gmail.com>,
<***@eternal-september.org>


The problem is the t.o. moderators’ software that rejects all posts to
t.o. with false error messages.

I get dozens of bounce messages from their mail server every day, so I
decided to make the posters aware of this issue by setting the group
to read only rather than letting their articles go lost without
notice.
**********************

I forwarded the above message to the T.O. moderator the day I received
it.
Post by Aioe
Post by jillery
However, I assume the T.O. moderator will understand. I will forward
the above information to him. This may be the key to solving this
problem. Thank you again for looking into this.
please, could you report me what he replies?
I will copy you with anything I read from the T.O. moderator about the
problem with AIOE or E-S.
--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
jillery
2020-11-13 18:08:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
Post by jillery
IIUC the above means aioe received and forwarded via SMTP the target
message, but the T.O. server rejected it because "can't create user
output file".
yes, it's right
Post by jillery
I don't understand why that problem would affect only messages sent from
aioe, or more precisely, not sent from Supernews also.
eternal-september has the same issue, supernews and individual seems able
to post.
it looks like a mail routing problem
Post by jillery
However, I assume the T.O. moderator will understand. I will forward
the above information to him. This may be the key to solving this
problem. Thank you again for looking into this.
please, could you report me what he replies?
The following is a copy of a post from the T.O. moderator:
**************************************
Post by Aioe
Does this fix the bizarre issue with Path: headers
Thanks to Jillery poking me to dig into it, for some reason,
alone of all the news servers sending messages to the 'bot,
AIOE manages to use a Path: header that *inews* rejects.

inews is the bit of the news server that takes the email I
reformat, add an Approved: header to it, etc., then takes
the reformatted article and posts it to my local news server
on beagle.

Somehow, and I've never seen this before in 20 years, inews is
suddenly
offended.

I just grepped for Path: headers on some incoming messages and these
are what inews has no issue with:

Path: postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Path: fx08.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
Path: news.alt.net
Path: individual.net!not-for-mail
Path: nntp.earthlink.com!news.earthlink.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
Path: nntp.brightview.co.uk!news.brightview.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail

So... some sites stick a POSTED on the end of the news server name,
some
don't.

AIOE doesn't do that. It does this:
Path: .POSTED.XJXqm3vOuFQU7mNtCbN52w.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail
Path: .POSTED.yEbC73mbaYJlU7VA+Aa9nw.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail
Path: .POSTED.zZQMGTd752Nb3dcIrKWAzA.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail

And for whatever reason, Path: headers in THAT format make inews do
THIS:

inews: cannot send article to server: 441 Path: header shows a
previous injection of the article

The bot log shows it sending the article to inews, and what I missed
yesterday
was inews vomiting:
From ***@aioe.org Wed Nov 4 16:01:28 2020
Subject: Re: eternal-september
Folder: /home/to/bin/topost | /usr/local/news/bin/inews -h 2834
inews: cannot send article to server: 441 Path: header shows a
previous injection of the article

So I am now modifying the Path: header on incoming articles to an
X-Path:
header. On all incoming articles. As far as I can tell, X-headers
are
treated as comments, so it will preserve the Path: information while
letting inews ignore it for whatever dark reasons inews hates AIOE's
Path:
headers.

SOMEONE GO TRY POSTING FROM AIOE.

--D.
*********************************

FYI, I have since posted a reply to the above via aioe, and it
appeared in T.O. So things are copacetic again between T.O. and aioe.
This problem would not have remained unresolved without your help.
Thank you again.
jillery
2020-11-13 18:12:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by jillery
Post by Aioe
Post by jillery
IIUC the above means aioe received and forwarded via SMTP the target
message, but the T.O. server rejected it because "can't create user
output file".
yes, it's right
Post by jillery
I don't understand why that problem would affect only messages sent from
aioe, or more precisely, not sent from Supernews also.
eternal-september has the same issue, supernews and individual seems able
to post.
it looks like a mail routing problem
Post by jillery
However, I assume the T.O. moderator will understand. I will forward
the above information to him. This may be the key to solving this
problem. Thank you again for looking into this.
please, could you report me what he replies?
**************************************
Post by Aioe
Does this fix the bizarre issue with Path: headers
Thanks to Jillery poking me to dig into it, for some reason,
alone of all the news servers sending messages to the 'bot,
AIOE manages to use a Path: header that *inews* rejects.
inews is the bit of the news server that takes the email I
reformat, add an Approved: header to it, etc., then takes
the reformatted article and posts it to my local news server
on beagle.
Somehow, and I've never seen this before in 20 years, inews is
suddenly
offended.
I just grepped for Path: headers on some incoming messages and these
Path: postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Path: fx08.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail
Path: news.alt.net
Path: individual.net!not-for-mail
Path: nntp.earthlink.com!news.earthlink.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
Path: nntp.brightview.co.uk!news.brightview.co.uk.POSTED!not-for-mail
So... some sites stick a POSTED on the end of the news server name,
some
don't.
Path: .POSTED.XJXqm3vOuFQU7mNtCbN52w.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail
Path: .POSTED.yEbC73mbaYJlU7VA+Aa9nw.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail
Path: .POSTED.zZQMGTd752Nb3dcIrKWAzA.user.gioia.aioe.org!not-for-mail
And for whatever reason, Path: headers in THAT format make inews do
inews: cannot send article to server: 441 Path: header shows a
previous injection of the article
The bot log shows it sending the article to inews, and what I missed
yesterday
Subject: Re: eternal-september
Folder: /home/to/bin/topost | /usr/local/news/bin/inews -h 2834
inews: cannot send article to server: 441 Path: header shows a
previous injection of the article
So I am now modifying the Path: header on incoming articles to an
header. On all incoming articles. As far as I can tell, X-headers
are
treated as comments, so it will preserve the Path: information while
letting inews ignore it for whatever dark reasons inews hates AIOE's
headers.
SOMEONE GO TRY POSTING FROM AIOE.
--D.
*********************************
FYI, I have since posted a reply to the above via aioe, and it
appeared in T.O. So things are copacetic again between T.O. and aioe.
This problem would not have remained unresolved without your help.
Thank you again.
<URK> Make that "would have remained unresolved".
--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
kensi
2020-11-14 03:10:33 UTC
Permalink
Could the real problem be that servers are putting POSTED in the paths
of articles that haven't, in fact, been posted yet? What does the RFC
say about this when sending a post to a moderator?
--
"To explain the unknown by the known is a logical procedure; to explain
the known by the unknown is a form of theological lunacy." ~David Brooks
"I get fooled all the time by the constant hosiery parade
in here." ~Checkmate
Aioe
2020-11-14 10:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by jillery
SOMEONE GO TRY POSTING FROM AIOE.
solved
jillery
2020-11-14 14:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by jillery
solved
That's what I said.

jillery
2020-11-04 13:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
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Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: eternal-september
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 19:22:17 -0500
Organization: What are you looking for?
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On Tue, 3 Nov 2020 17:51:13 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden
=20
=20
=20
On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 21:14:37 -0700, Pro =
=20
get an error message when I try to post here from =
eternal-september.org
=20
Ok, what was the error message? Did you google it?
=20
=20
=20
"Postings to "talk.origins" are not allowed here"
=20
It's an error message Wolfgang from eternal-september only =
recently
created. Googling it provides nothing relevant to this situation.
=20
Until Wolfgang and DIG agree on how to handle bounced posts, E-S =
is
likely to continue to automatically and unconditionally bounce =
*all*
posts it receives with a destination to T.O.
Herr Wolfgang's message seems clear, bearing no indication of the =
existence
of a software problem. "Not allowed". Or maybe you're just making =
up a
wolfgang story to frighten the children.
=20
You don't have to keep proving you're a willfully stupid troll.
=20
Of course he does. It=E2=80=99s all he has.
=20
=20
You are correct in the sense that Glenn displays a compulsion, of
being driven by an irresistible urge to prove his willful stupidity.
=20
My comment is in the sense that he has proved his willful stupidity
many times over, to the degree that it can't be reasonably doubted,
which make additional proof redundant.
All that is true, as what RonO and Wolffan say is true. However, it=20
seems to me that the main thing that Glenn wants is attention, and you=20
three are amply providing it. Wouldn't it be more effective simply to=20
ignore his posts completely?
We all know by now that he's ignorant and proud of it, that he will=20
always run away from the Top Six, and that he's a Master Baiter, so
why=20
give him what he wants?
You may be right, but my impression is, his motivation is to read his
own nonsense. If that is so, ignoring him would do nothing to
discourage, and silence may even give him the impression of tacit
acceptance.
--=20
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fascinating. The above is not the messageID I provided in my previous
post, and is instead an entirely different post I sent days later.
This message was not supposed to go via aioe, but via Supernews.

It turns out that since that time, I have discovered a problem with
news reader. Unless you're familiar with Forte Agent, a full
explanation would only be confusing, but the short versions is that my
news reader by default applies an invalid configuration to outgoing
messages, and I am forced to manually force the correct configuration.
And part of the configuration is which news server to use.

I am aware that I had unintentionally sent the invalid messasge above,
but I until now I was completely unaware that my news server tried to
send it via aioe. The following is the header of the duplicate
message that was sent via Supernews and accepted by T.O.:

*********************************
Path:
buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!goblin3!goblin.stu.neva.ru!nntp-feed.chiark.greenend.org.uk!ewrotcd!news.eyrie.org!beagle.ediacara.org!.POSTED.beagle.ediacara.org!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: jillery <***@gmail.com>
Newsgroups: talk.origins
Subject: Re: eternal-september
Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 19:23:31 -0500
Organization: What are you looking for?
Lines: 76
Sender: ***@beagle.ediacara.org
Approved: ***@beagle.ediacara.org
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>
References: <***@news.alt.net>
<rnqlfd$16v$***@news.mixmin.net>
<***@4ax.com>
<***@4ax.com>
<***@news.supernews.com>
<***@4ax.com>
<***@mid.individual.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Injection-Info: beagle.ediacara.org;
posting-host="beagle.ediacara.org:3.132.105.89";
logging-data="83548";
mail-complaints-to="***@beagle.ediacara.org"
User-Agent: ForteAgent/8.00.32.1272
To: talk-***@moderators.isc.org
Return-Path: <***@giganews.com>
Delivered-To: talk-***@ediacara.org
id A0C95235972; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 19:23:15 -0500 (EST)
FORGED_GMAIL_RCVD,FREEMAIL_FROM,NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED,SPF_HELO_NONE
autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4
by beagle.ediacara.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78AF235926
for <talk-***@ediacara.org>; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 19:23:14
-0500 (EST)
id 5FDED7D0CF; Wed, 4 Nov 2020 00:23:33 +0000 (UTC)
Delivered-To: talk-***@moderators.isc.org
by mod-relay.zaccari.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 510647D0CA
for <talk-***@moderators.isc.org>; Wed, 4 Nov 2020
00:23:33 +0000 (UTC)
by mailstar.serv2.aus.datafoundry.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id
BC9B474045
for <talk-***@moderators.isc.org>; Tue, 3 Nov 2020
18:23:32 -0600 (CST)
id 84C982440092; Tue, 3 Nov 2020 18:23:32 -0600 (CST)
X-NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Nov 2020 18:23:32 -0600
X-DF-Seen-By: ms
X-Original-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html
X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers
X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your
complaint properly
X-Postfilter: 1.3.40
Bytes: 5234
Xref: number.nntp.giganews.com talk.origins:2881607
**********************************

The short version is, the problem I reported on 10/31/2020 is being
complicated by the behavior of my news reader, but I believe I have
identified and mitigated that complication.

The following is a post that I just now manually configured to be sent
to T.O. via aioe:

Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2020 08:21:32 -0500
Organization: What are you looking for?
Message-ID: <***@4ax.com>

It is now a half-hour later. This message has not appeared on T.O,
even though I and others have successfully posted to T.O during that
time. Any ideas what's going on?
--
You're entitled to your own opinions.
You're not entitled to your own facts.
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