Discussion:
Oops [urgent]
(too old to reply)
G. Singh
2021-03-13 16:11:43 UTC
Permalink
https://news.aioe.org/index.php?%20id=access-restrictions

In removing alt.politics from the banlist you seem to have made a *slight*
booboo.

At the end of the crosspost restrictions, where alt.politics was is now
just a bare "alt.", where presumably you meant to either leave alt.politics
crosspost-restricted or remove it entirely.

The way it stands now, *no* crossposts involving alt groups would work,
which obviously needs to be fixed quickly since such a broad crosspost
restriction basically breaks Usenet completely.

Please fix ASAP, either by changing that entry back to "alt.politics" or
by removing it completely, whichever you'd intended.
Aioe
2021-03-13 19:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
At the end of the crosspost restrictions, where alt.politics was is now
just a bare "alt.", where presumably you meant to either leave alt.politics
crosspost-restricted or remove it entirely.
at the moment, crosspost is forbidden for every alt.* group.
this makes useless that rule.
Post by G. Singh
The way it stands now,*no* crossposts involving alt groups would work,
which obviously needs to be fixed quickly since such a broad crosspost
restriction basically breaks Usenet completely.
crosspost restrictions are needed to avoid to propagate non sense flood
attacks.
G. Singh
2021-03-13 20:52:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
Post by G. Singh
At the end of the crosspost restrictions, where alt.politics was is now
just a bare "alt.", where presumably you meant to either leave alt.politics
crosspost-restricted or remove it entirely.
at the moment, crosspost is forbidden for every alt.* group.
That's what I'm saying. You've screwed up and it's resulting in a way
overbroad block that will pretty much make aioe useless until you fix it.
Grant Taylor
2021-03-13 21:11:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
That's what I'm saying. You've screwed up and it's resulting in a way
overbroad block that will pretty much make aioe useless until you fix it.
It seems to me like the ban on cross-posting to alt.* is /intentional/
and well informed.

Remember, it's a server administrator's choice how they run their own
server.

So, either live with it, or use a different server.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-13 21:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
That's what I'm saying. You've screwed up and it's resulting in a way
overbroad block that will pretty much make aioe useless until you fix it.
It seems to me like the ban on cross-posting to alt.* is /intentional/
It better not be.

If it is, it's the stupidest thing that anyone has ever done in the entire
history of stupidity, which history, lest we forget, includes the Trump
presidency.

Either way it has to be undone immediately, as the server is effectively
rendered all but useless by such an over-broad restriction.
Steve
2021-03-13 21:45:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
That's what I'm saying. You've screwed up and it's resulting in a way
overbroad block that will pretty much make aioe useless until you fix it.
It seems to me like the ban on cross-posting to alt.* is /intentional/
It better not be.
Or what? Will you stomp your ickle feet and scweam and scweam?
Post by G. Singh
If it is, it's the stupidest thing that anyone has ever done in the entire
history of stupidity, which history, lest we forget, includes the Trump
presidency.
Either way it has to be undone immediately, as the server is effectively
rendered all but useless by such an over-broad restriction.
Boohoo.
Don't cross post.
Grant Taylor
2021-03-13 23:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Don't cross post.
I believe there are legitimate uses for cross posting. But most do not
/require/ cross posting. The can often be accomplished with another
message posted to the other groups with a judicious Followup-To: header.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-14 02:07:49 UTC
Permalink
Maybe try explaining, in polite terms, without attacking someone, how
the new / current rules are negatively impacting you. As in what groups
you can't cross post to and /why/ you need to cross post..
Unless I've accidentally blundered into North Korea in the past 24 hours,
I don't need to prove that I have a good reason for wanting to do something
before I can be generously allowed, the whims of the King willing, to do
that thing; the burden of proof is on whomever would limit my freedoms to
justify why I should not be permitted to do that thing.

I'm not accepting any kind of "travel papers, please?" type nonsense on
the Internet, and most *especially* not on Usenet. I will not be reduced to
pleading and groveling for permission to do the same ordinary things that
I used to be able to do at my pleasure. If this nonsense is not stopped I
will abandon this server entirely. And as for *you*, you may either side
with me, or you may go to hell. Or perhaps North Korea. Sounds like you'd
prefer it there anyway.
Grant Taylor
2021-03-14 03:28:00 UTC
Permalink
If this nonsense is not stopped I will abandon this server entirely.
It's not non-sense.

A logical explanation (argument) for why limiting cross posting in alt.*
has been provided.

No logical explanation (argument) for why cross posting in alt.* should
be re-instated has been provided.

Server operators are free to run their server however /they/ want to.
They are not beholden to users. Especially users that won't provide an
explanation of why they need a functionality.

In fact, the only class of people that I see argue vehemently without
providing an explanation are quite often people abusing the very thing
that has been limited.

So, either live with what AIOE is doing or use a different server.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-14 03:54:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
If this nonsense is not stopped I will abandon this server entirely.
It's not non-sense.
Sure it is.
Post by Grant Taylor
A logical explanation (argument) for why limiting cross posting in alt.*
has been provided.
No it hasn't. In the entire history of AIOE nothing like this has ever
happened before. Restrictions have been made regarding specific individual
groups, not whole hierarchies, let alone major hierarchies like alt and the
big 8. If such restrictions have never been needed before, in over a decade
of operation, then they are not needed now.
Post by Grant Taylor
No logical explanation (argument) for why cross posting in alt.* should
be re-instated has been provided.
Nor is one needed. The two things are not symmetrical. Restricting something
carries a burden of proof. Permitting it does not.

But I had already told you this, so I sense you are arguing in bad faith.
Post by Grant Taylor
Server operators are free to run their server however /they/ want to.
They are not beholden to users.
They are if they want to have any. They are if they want their server to
actually be useful. Otherwise it might as well be a hobby project in their
garage that never sees the light of day and remains entirely private to
them.
Post by Grant Taylor
Especially users that won't provide an explanation of why they need a
functionality.
Once again, for the terminally hard of hearing (or maybe just terminally
stupid): I don't HAVE to provide ANY explanation of why I need a
functionality. Not unless I'm asking for something completely new and
unusual, rather than something that is a normal part and parcel of things.

But if you *insist*: I need this functionality because without
crossposting, Usenet is not Usenet. It's just one more forum site where
if something fits more than one topic area people will end up posting
separate copies in each of those topic areas and then you're always
running into the same messages over and over even after seeing one
occurrence and marking it read. For the same reason, *you* need this
functionality, even if you don't realize or believe it.
Post by Grant Taylor
In fact, the only class of people that I see argue vehemently without
providing an explanation are quite often people abusing the very thing
that has been limited.
Are you accusing me of something? You're aware that that, too, is an
area where the burden of proof is on you, the accuser, to prove this
so-called "abuse" and not on me to prove that I have no abusive
intentions, right?

You seem to have the mindset of someone who not only lives in a place
like China or North Korea where things are forbidden by default and one
must grovel for permission to do even ordinary, commonplace things, but
someone who lives in a place like that and *likes* it.
Grant Taylor
2021-03-14 04:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Sure it is.
AIOE's comment, copied below for convenience, makes perfect sense to me.
Post by G. Singh
crosspost restrictions are needed to avoid to propagate non sense
flood attacks.
Thus not non-sense.
Post by G. Singh
No it hasn't.
/me squints at AIOE's comment above
...
/me squints at it again.

Yep, I'm quite sure that a logical explanation has been provided for why
alt.* is currently forbidding cross posting.
Post by G. Singh
In the entire history of AIOE nothing like this has ever happened
before.
So what. Before the first World War, there had never been anything like
a world war. And yet we have had two of them.
Post by G. Singh
Restrictions have been made regarding specific individual groups,
not whole hierarchies, let alone major hierarchies like alt and the
big 8.
So what. History might hint at what may happen in the future. But
history is a poor fortune teller. Much like trying to drive a car by
looking in the rear view mirror to see where you have been.
Post by G. Singh
If such restrictions have never been needed before, in over a decade
of operation, then they are not needed now.
AIOE's operator obviously thinks they are /currently/ /needed/.

I have seen some of the spam messages that have been flooding groups
over the last couple of weeks, some of which originated from AIOE's servers.

Given the number of groups involved, combined with the fact that cross
posting was common, and that the cross posts went to the alt.*
hierarchy, AIOE made a judgement call and decided to restrict cross
posts on their server. They are perfectly within their preview to do so.
Post by G. Singh
Nor is one needed. The two things are not symmetrical. Restricting something
carries a burden of proof. Permitting it does not.
This is not the court of law. There is no requirement for the burden of
proof for why something has been restricted.

If you feel so incensed by the restrictions that AIOE has put in place,
I suggest that you request a refund from AIOE's accounting department.

It's AIOE's server. They can do with it whatever they want to do with it.
Post by G. Singh
But I had already told you this, so I sense you are arguing in bad faith.
We seem to be diametrically opposed on the burden of proof.
Post by G. Singh
They are if they want to have any. They are if they want their server to
actually be useful. Otherwise it might as well be a hobby project in their
garage that never sees the light of day and remains entirely private to
them.
I did not say that there are not opportunity costs associated with
AIOE's decision.

I trust that AIOE has made an /informed/ decision. A decision that they
are completely entitled to make.
Post by G. Singh
Once again, for the terminally hard of hearing (or maybe just terminally
stupid): I don't HAVE to provide ANY explanation of why I need a
functionality. Not unless I'm asking for something completely new and
unusual, rather than something that is a normal part and parcel of things.
No, you don't have to do anything. You don't have to use AIOE's
service. You can walk away from AIOE as you threatened to do so in a
previous message.

But I would suggest that you do give an explanation if you want to
appeal to AIOE's operator to have them change their mind and re-enable
cross posts in the alt.* hierarchy.
I'm not /insisting/. I am simply curious why you are so vehement about
/needing/ the ability to cross post to alt.*.
Post by G. Singh
I need this functionality because without crossposting, Usenet is
not Usenet.
/me looks at this thread ....

Are we not engaging in a discussion?

Are we not using Usenet for this discussion?

Because it seems to me like we are doing both of those things /without/
cross posting.
Post by G. Singh
It's just one more forum site where if something fits more than
one topic area people will end up posting separate copies in each
of those topic areas and then you're always running into the same
messages over and over even after seeing one occurrence and marking
it read.
I agree that cross posting can be very useful. But I do not believe
that it is required.
Post by G. Singh
For the same reason, *you* need this functionality, even if you don't
realize or believe it.
I am perfectly content posting the same message to the individual groups
with the follow up set to a single group. Thus all responses (by news
clients that honor Followup-To) will show up in one group.

I don't actually /need/ the ability to /cross/ /post/ to initiate a
discussion across multiple groups when I don't know which group is the
best group to use.
Post by G. Singh
Are you accusing me of something?
No I am not.

If I was accusing you of something, I'd say "I accuse you, G. Singh, of
...". Since I didn't say that, I'm not accusing you of anything.
Post by G. Singh
You're aware that that, too, is an area where the burden of proof is
on you, the accuser, to prove this so-called "abuse" and not on me
to prove that I have no abusive intentions, right?
This is Usenet. I'm allowed to make any wild claim / accusation /
statement that I want to. And I don't have to have any proof to
substantiate it.

I only need proof if I want others to believe it.
Post by G. Singh
You seem to have the mindset of someone who not only lives in a place
like China or North Korea where things are forbidden by default and one
must grovel for permission to do even ordinary, commonplace things, but
someone who lives in a place like that and *likes* it.
No, that's not an accurate characterization of me.

I'm a server administrator that offers free services to people /
Internet at large and have a very dim view of people who say server
administrators have -- I quote -- "You've screwed up and it's resulting
in a way overbroad block that will pretty much make AIOE useless until
you fix it.". Especially /after/ AIOE responded to your more polite
"booboo" comment clarifying that AIOE had not made a mistake and that
their actions were deliberate.

I am a firm believer in it's my server and I'll run it however I want
to. I'm also a believer in the Golden Rule, thus other server
administrators are going to run their server as they want to.

If you don't like the way that AIOE is currently configured, either see
if it changes in time, or go elsewhere.

You could even run your own server where you can run it how /you/ want
to run it. I'll even peer with you.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Grant Taylor
2021-03-14 04:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
I am perfectly content posting the same message to the individual groups
with the follow up set to a single group.  Thus all responses (by news
clients that honor Followup-To) will show up in one group.
I just posted a test to alt.test with follow up set to alt.test.test
through AIOE, so I know that this recommendation does work.

No, this is not ideal.

Judicious use of cross posting would be better in many ways. But the
lack of cross posting does not render Usenet useless.

I believe that this is a viable workaround for the current restrictions
that AIOE has in place on their server.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-14 16:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
We seem to be diametrically opposed on the burden of proof.
That's because you are a fascist. Or at least some kind of authoritarian.
If you weren't, you'd have my corner instead of taking the wrong side.
Post by Grant Taylor
I trust that AIOE has made an /informed/ decision.
I *don't*. In fact I know for a fact that they made the wrong decision.
Post by Grant Taylor
But I would suggest that you do give an explanation if you want to
appeal to AIOE's operator
Once again, for the terminally hard of hearing (or maybe just terminally
stupid): I refuse to grovel and beg for permission to do what I am already
supposed to be able to do. I won't give my would-be oppressor the pleasure.

It's called "dignity" and "standing up for yourself". You might want to try
it sometime.
Post by Grant Taylor
This is Usenet. I'm allowed to make any wild claim / accusation /
statement that I want to. And I don't have to have any proof to
substantiate it.
Ah, now you're getting it. And in the same vein, you're allowed, or should
be allowed, to crosspost if you want to, without having to have any proof
of need to convince some gatekeeper to let you.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
You seem to have the mindset of someone who not only lives in a place
like China or North Korea where things are forbidden by default and one
must grovel for permission to do even ordinary, commonplace things, but
someone who lives in a place like that and *likes* it.
No, that's not an accurate characterization of me.
Actions speak louder than words.
Post by Grant Taylor
I'm a server administrator that offers free services to people /
Internet at large and have a very dim view of people who say server
administrators have -- I quote -- "You've screwed up and it's resulting
in a way overbroad block that will pretty much make AIOE useless until
you fix it.". Especially /after/ AIOE responded to your more polite
"booboo" comment clarifying that AIOE had not made a mistake and that
their actions were deliberate.
And yet, they HAVE made a mistake. The proof of that is that I am being
inconvenienced but I had not done anything wrong that would make me
deserving of punishment.

Since you can't refute this (as it is self-evidently the truth) you have
no choice but to resort to bluster, and to authoritarian arguments that
amount to "if you were punished, then /ipso facto/ you are guilty and
should either take your lumps or beg and grovel to be pardoned for your
crimes, because Dear Leader is infallible -- if he says someone is guilty
then that, in and of itself, MAKES them guilty!"
Post by Grant Taylor
You could even run your own server where you can run it how /you/ want
to run it. I'll even peer with you.
I don't have the resources.

You know what? That's even worse. Now you're arguing IN FAVOR OF moving
the ability to crosspost behind a paywall, in effect, making crossposting
the exclusive province of the wealthy.

Fuck that noise, and fuck you.

I've had enough of that sort of bullshit lately. EVERYTHING is disappearing
behind paywalls. Want to see the latest new movie? In 2019, that would be
$8.25, payable in pocket change at the physical box office. In 2021, that
will be $8.25 ... per month, for a Netflix subscription, plus another $100
or more a month for a fast enough internet connection to stream movies,
plus another $1000 or more a month in increased rent to move into a downtown
apartment where the physical networking infrastructure is good enough to
support those speeds. Or, alternatively, you can spring for a $1,000,000 or
more house in an urban neighborhood with good broadband.

Can't afford to be spending $2000+ a month in rent or mortgage payments?
Then no new movies (or, increasingly, TV show episodes) for you.

Same thing for anywhere that the retail is closing down: nobody will deliver
to you unless you live in a sufficiently expensive zipcode. If your rent is
merely three-digit, no deliveries for you.

And now you are proposing that the ability to crosspost on Usenet be
likewise taken away from all but the white-collar workers and the rich?

Go to hell.
Steve
2021-03-14 16:27:30 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 14 Mar 2021 16:01:47 +0000 (UTC), G. Singh wrote:
[...]
Post by G. Singh
The proof of that is that I am being
inconvenienced
That sucks, Paul.
PMSL.
Absurd Burd
2021-03-14 17:06:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by G. Singh
The proof of that is that I am being
inconvenienced
That sucks, Paul.
PMSL.
Sticks out a mile, innit. <BFG>
--
Absurd Burd <https://tinyurl.com/ht3733er>
G. Singh
2021-03-14 21:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by G. Singh
The proof of that is that I am being
inconvenienced
That sucks, Paul.
Who's that?
Post by Steve
PMSL.
Gezundheit!
Grant Taylor
2021-03-14 23:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
I *don't*. In fact I know for a fact that they made the wrong decision.
Right or wrong, it's /AIOE's/ decision to make.
Post by G. Singh
Once again, for the terminally hard of hearing (or maybe just
terminally stupid): I refuse to grovel and beg for permission to do
what I am already supposed to be able to do. I won't give my would-be
oppressor the pleasure.
Give a logical reason, or don't. It's your decision. But AIOE has
already made a choice and you're not offering anything to persuade them
to change their choice.
Post by G. Singh
It's called "dignity" and "standing up for yourself". You might want
to try it sometime.
Enjoy your dignity / stand up for yourself while not cross posting to
alt.* via AIOE.
Post by G. Singh
Ah, now you're getting it. And in the same vein, you're allowed,
or should be allowed, to crosspost if you want to, without having to
have any proof of need to convince some gatekeeper to let you.
I /can/ cross post to alt.* on other servers.

AIOE has defined new rules for their servers. That's their choice to make.

I can abide by their rules, make a logical request for the rules to be
changed, or go elsewhere. You are free to do the same thing. But you
seem to have chosen to bitch and berate others who try to explain things
to you.
Post by G. Singh
Actions speak louder than words.
And yet, they HAVE made a mistake.
It's not a /mistake/ when it's a /deliberate/ /choice/.
Post by G. Singh
The proof of that is that I am being inconvenienced but I had not
done anything wrong that would make me deserving of punishment.
I don't think anybody has accused you personally of having done anything
wrong.

You may be suffering as an innocent bystander from the result of a
decision that AIOE has made. Though I question if you are actually
suffering. Especially considering that you can choose to use a
different news server.
Post by G. Singh
Since you can't refute this
I just did refute this.
Post by G. Singh
(as it is self-evidently the truth)
I question the veracity of your so called self-evident truth.
Post by G. Singh
you have no choice but to resort to bluster,
I'm neither talking loudly nor aggressively.
Post by G. Singh
and to authoritarian arguments that amount to "if you were punished,
then /ipso facto/ you are guilty and should either take your lumps or
beg and grovel to be pardoned for your crimes, because Dear Leader
is infallible -- if he says someone is guilty then that, in and of
itself, MAKES them guilty!"
Where has someone stated that you personally are guilty of anything?

You are included in, and may even be impacted by, AIOE's decision. But
that does not mean that it has anything to do with /you/ /personally/.
Post by G. Singh
I don't have the resources.
Okay. That is an entirely different discussion. I also question the
veracity of that statement.

A $5 Raspberry Pi Zero can easily handle the 50-100 MB of news for a
text newsgroup. I'd even be happy to help you do batched based peering
so that you didn't need to be online all the time. I'm confident that
we could come up with ways to make it work /if/ you wanted to. I'm
happy to help if you do.

If you don't have, can't acquire, don't receive a Raspberry Pi as a
gift, then that's fine too. I'm confident that any computer newer than
a 386 can run a news server. There's a very good chance that the device
you're using for this thread easily be your personal news server which
allows cross posting anywhere you want.
Post by G. Singh
You know what? That's even worse. Now you're arguing IN FAVOR OF
moving the ability to crosspost behind a paywall, in effect, making
crossposting the exclusive province of the wealthy.
No I am not. Point and case I'm outlining how you can have your own
news server with virtually no additional expense.
Post by G. Singh
And now you are proposing that the ability to crosspost on Usenet be
likewise taken away from all but the white-collar workers and the rich?
No I am not.

I'm proposing that you run your own news server, which would enable you
to do more than you can do now with AIOE.

I'm suggesting ways that you can get /more/ access to things than you
presently have with AIOE.

I'm suggesting something that is largely free. Or at the very least no
additional monetary cost to you. Sure, it will cost some of your time.
But I think that's worthwhile to have more flexibility.

Or you can spit in the face of people that have provided things to you
for free or people who are willing / trying to help you do what you want.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-15 21:50:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
And yet, they HAVE made a mistake.
It's not a /mistake/ when it's a /deliberate/ /choice/.
It's perfectly possible for it to be both.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
and to authoritarian arguments that amount to "if you were punished,
then /ipso facto/ you are guilty and should either take your lumps or
beg and grovel to be pardoned for your crimes, because Dear Leader
is infallible -- if he says someone is guilty then that, in and of
itself, MAKES them guilty!"
Where has someone stated that you personally are guilty of anything?
You did, when you suggested that I should just accept my punishment
rather than fight back in any way, even by just arguing against it.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
I don't have the resources.
Okay. That is an entirely different discussion. I also question the
veracity of that statement.
A $5 Raspberry Pi Zero can easily handle the 50-100 MB of news for a
text newsgroup.
Perhaps so, but the thing would need a very expensive internet connection.
Here, look at these statistics from AIOE itself:

https://news.aioe.org/stats/feeds-activity/

Tot up the "Average" figures in the bottom table and you get easily over
50 megabytes of transfer per day. The "Maximum" gives an idea of what peak
load one would need to handle: easily north of 100 megabytes. If this was
steady traffic, then on a busy day you could do with a few Kb/s, old-school
modem speeds. But it's not. It's bursty traffic, which means the connection
will sit idle for much of the time and jump into the many megabits per
second range occasionally. A 1 megabit rural-ish ADSL service is unlikely
to cope well with the peaks of those bursts.

That's with a text-only feed. Add binaries and it goes up into the
terabytes per second range. Even consumer-grade fiber won't help you then.
You need a data center in a big city to cope with those traffic levels.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
And now you are proposing that the ability to crosspost on Usenet be
likewise taken away from all but the white-collar workers and the rich?
No I am not.
And yet, that is the end result of the policy you are defending. I suppose
that's just a coincidence, though. :s
Post by Grant Taylor
I'm proposing that you run your own news server, which would enable you
to do more than you can do now with AIOE.
I can't stream Netflix here without it stuttering badly at any kind of
decent definition (i.e., not a measly 480p). A full text Usenet feed would
choke my connection.
Post by Grant Taylor
I'm suggesting something that is largely free. Or at the very least no
additional monetary cost to you.
Moving to where it's possible to get good enough data speeds would cost an
arm and a leg, some of it ongoing in the form of my rent doubling (or
more).

Well, except that mobile speeds here are pretty good. But one must pay by
the gigabyte for that, and at many tens of megabytes per day the cost of
running a usenet feed over that connection would easily get up in the
several hundred dollar a month range.
Post by Grant Taylor
Or you can spit in the face of people that have provided things to you
for free or people who are willing / trying to help you do what you want.
Translation: "the AIOE server's administrator is infallible and inherently
above reproach. He absolutely must never be criticized, nor may any action
taken by him, intentionally or inadvertently, be questioned under any
circumstances. Doing so is blasphemy and punishable by death. Heathen!
Infidel! Away with thee, vile pagan beast! Away!"
Absurd Burd
2021-03-15 22:12:25 UTC
Permalink
G. Singh <***@gmail.invalid> wrote:

[...]
Post by G. Singh
Translation: "the AIOE server's administrator is infallible
and inherently above reproach. [...]
I thought you were leaving?

--
Absurd Burd is looking at you. <https://tinyurl.com/ht3733er>
Grant Taylor
2021-03-15 22:38:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Absurd Burd
I thought you were leaving?
I doubt it.

G. Singh seems to want to bitch about things instead of actually
changing anything.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
jim
2021-03-16 15:28:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Absurd Burd
[...]
Post by G. Singh
Translation: "the AIOE server's administrator is infallible
and inherently above reproach. [...]
I thought you were leaving?
--
Absurd Burd is looking at you. <https://tinyurl.com/ht3733er>
INDEEEEEEEED!
Grant Taylor
2021-03-15 22:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
It's perfectly possible for it to be both.
But it is not an oops or a mistake in this case.
Post by G. Singh
You did, when you suggested that I should just accept my punishment
rather than fight back in any way, even by just arguing against it.
No I did not.

Again, if I want to accuse you of something or declare your guilt, I
will do so.
Post by G. Singh
Perhaps so, but the thing would need a very expensive internet
I disagree.
Post by G. Singh
https://news.aioe.org/stats/feeds-activity/
I'm well aware of what the daily statistics are for a text only news
server. I run multiple.
Post by G. Singh
Tot up the "Average" figures in the bottom table and you get easily
over 50 megabytes of transfer per day. The "Maximum" gives an idea
of what peak load one would need to handle: easily north of 100
megabytes. If this was steady traffic, then on a busy day you could do
with a few Kb/s, old-school modem speeds. But it's not. It's bursty
traffic, which means the connection will sit idle for much of the
time and jump into the many megabits per second range occasionally.
Nope.

The throughput of the connection determines the speed at which data
flows. News servers will happily sit on articles and let them spool up
to send them at a steady slow rate.

The numbers you cited are also for uncompressed data. They also are
very likely for NNTP. It's quite easy to send the data via UUCP bag
files, which can easily be compressed. Contemporary compression can
compress text between 10 and 100 times.

That also assumes a full text feed. One of the wonderful things about
running your own news server is that you can work with your peer(s) to
adjust what newsgroups you want sent to your server. Thus potentially
reducing the amount of data MASSIVELY.
Post by G. Singh
A 1 megabit rural-ish ADSL service is unlikely to cope well with the
peaks of those bursts.
No, you don't need a multi-megabit per second connection.
Post by G. Singh
That's with a text-only feed. Add binaries and it goes up into the
terabytes per second range. Even consumer-grade fiber won't help
you then. You need a data center in a big city to cope with those
traffic levels.
I'm talking about text only newsgroups.

Though I suspect that you knew that and that you are including binary
groups just to be obstinate.
Post by G. Singh
And yet, that is the end result of the policy you are defending. I
suppose that's just a coincidence, though. :s
Nope. It's not even a coincidence.

Nothing is forcing you to use AIOE's news server which included the
restriction.

You are free to use other news servers which don't have the restriction.

It's /your/ /choice/ to continue using AIOE or switch to another provider.
Post by G. Singh
I can't stream Netflix here without it stuttering badly at any kind
of decent definition (i.e., not a measly 480p). A full text Usenet
feed would choke my connection.
I don't know what your connection is. But I would be surprised if a
text only Usenet feed used any appreciable bandwidth compared to Netflix.

There's also the fact that it's quite easy to have Usenet be batched and
sent to you when it's most convenient for you to use the bandwidth, e.g.
when you aren't watching Netflix.
Post by G. Singh
Moving to where it's possible to get good enough data speeds would cost
an arm and a leg, some of it ongoing in the form of my rent doubling
(or more).
I maintain that you don't need a multi-megabit Internet connection and
that you can quite likely easily handle Usenet over your existing
connection.
Post by G. Singh
Well, except that mobile speeds here are pretty good. But one must
pay by the gigabyte for that, and at many tens of megabytes per day
the cost of running a usenet feed over that connection would easily
get up in the several hundred dollar a month range.
You did say you watch Netflix. So you have demonstrated that you have
more bandwidth than is necessary for a text only Usenet server. And
that you are already paying for said bandwidth.
Post by G. Singh
Translation: "the AIOE server's administrator is infallible and
inherently above reproach. He absolutely must never be criticized,
nor may any action taken by him, intentionally or inadvertently,
be questioned under any circumstances. Doing so is blasphemy and
punishable by death. Heathen! Infidel! Away with thee, vile pagan
beast! Away!"
Nope.

I have not said any of that.

I have said that it's their choice to do what they want to do.

I have also said that you are free to choose a different news server.
Something you have threatened to do anyway. And yet here you are still
using AIOE.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-16 00:48:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
It's perfectly possible for it to be both.
But it is not an oops or a mistake in this case.
Sure it is.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
You did, when you suggested that I should just accept my punishment
rather than fight back in any way, even by just arguing against it.
No I did not.
Oh, that's right, you suggested that I *grovel* to be released from it,
rather than argue rationally against it.

Ain't happening.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Perhaps so, but the thing would need a very expensive internet
I disagree.
If you disagree with the statistics from AIOE itself, then it is as
pointless to argue with you as it is to argue with a climate change
denier or a QAnon lunatic. You are unmoved by facts and cling to
your beliefs out of an emotional need of some kind, which makes you
functionally delusional and unreachable by anyone but a psychiatrist
with specialist training, perhaps as a cult deprogrammer.
Post by Grant Taylor
The numbers you cited are also for uncompressed data. They also are
very likely for NNTP. It's quite easy to send the data via UUCP bag
files, which can easily be compressed.
If you don't mind going back to 1970s-contemporary latencies.
Post by Grant Taylor
That also assumes a full text feed. One of the wonderful things about
running your own news server is that you can work with your peer(s) to
adjust what newsgroups you want sent to your server. Thus potentially
reducing the amount of data MASSIVELY.
The last time I checked, the granularity of such things is whole
hierarchies, and you'll want the big 8 and alt, and it's a sure bet that
the big 8 and alt account for a large fraction of all of that text group
traffic.
Post by Grant Taylor
being obstinate.
Umm-hmm ...
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
And yet, that is the end result of the policy you are defending. I
suppose that's just a coincidence, though. :s
Nope. It's not even a coincidence.
Then you do admit that your goal is for crossposting ability to become
effectively the exclusive province of the white-collar middle class and
above -- the latte-drinking iMac laptop set, plus of course the outright
rich.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Translation: "the AIOE server's administrator is infallible and
inherently above reproach. He absolutely must never be criticized,
nor may any action taken by him, intentionally or inadvertently,
be questioned under any circumstances. Doing so is blasphemy and
punishable by death. Heathen! Infidel! Away with thee, vile pagan
beast! Away!"
Nope.
I have not said any of that.
Not in so many words, no. But you certainly implied it.
Post by Grant Taylor
I have also said that you are free to choose a different news server.
Something you have threatened to do anyway. And yet here you are still
using AIOE.
Only to continue this argument with you, but that may soon cease; see
above.
Grant Taylor
2021-03-16 03:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Sure it is.
I'm not going to beat my head against a wall on this point. We can
agree to disagree.
Post by G. Singh
Oh, that's right, you suggested that I *grovel* to be released from
it, rather than argue rationally against it.
No, I did not.

As I previously said, I suggested you elaborate on what your use case is
and how the lack of cross posting was impacting you. I asked you for
information. That is decidedly not asking you to grovel.
Post by G. Singh
If you disagree with the statistics from AIOE itself,
I disagree with your statement that "a very expensive internet
connection" is needed to run a text only news server.

You need a 9~10 kbps connection to transfer 100 MB a day. That's
trivial to do over even the slowest dial that's available in most places.

I agree with AIOE's statistics for a text only news server. They are
very similar to my news servers' statistics.
Post by G. Singh
If you don't mind going back to 1970s-contemporary latencies.
How often do you check Usenet?

You can easily schedule a cron job to make a UUCP ""call however often
you want to. Once a minute is trivial to do. I'd probably do something
between once every five minutes and once an hour.
Post by G. Singh
The last time I checked, the granularity of such things is whole
hierarchies, and you'll want the big 8 and alt, and it's a sure bet
that the big 8 and alt account for a large fraction of all of that
text group traffic.
You can /easily/ specify as granularly as you want. You want all, then
it's a single "*" pattern. You want comp.* and alt.*, then you
literally put "comp.*,alt.*,!*". You only want aioe.news.helpdesk, then
you put "aioe.news.helpdesk". It's trivial to be as granular or wide as
you want.
Post by G. Singh
Then you do admit that your goal is for crossposting ability to become
effectively the exclusive province of the white-collar middle class
and above -- the latte-drinking iMac laptop set, plus of course the
outright rich.
Absolutely not.

I said nothing of the sort.

You are twisting and perverting my words. ...WAY out of context.
Post by G. Singh
Not in so many words, no. But you certainly implied it.
No, I did not imply it.

I said it's their decision to make. Many times.

You have exactly two things you can do:

1) Live with it
2) Switch to a different provider.

Thus far you seem to be choosing #1 and bitching about it.
Post by G. Singh
Only to continue this argument with you, but that may soon cease;
see above.
You don't need to use AIOE's news server to have this discussion. You
can easily do so from a different news server.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-16 18:59:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Oh, that's right, you suggested that I *grovel* to be released from
it, rather than argue rationally against it.
No, I did not.
Yes, you did, in <s2jibl$40u$***@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>. You
repeated it in several subsequent messages, too. You suggested that I
grovel to the admin to please, please let me crosspost again, please?
And I said I refuse. I should not need to beg permission to exercise such
a basic function of usenet.
Post by Grant Taylor
You can easily schedule a cron job to make a UUCP ""call however often
you want to. Once a minute is trivial to do. I'd probably do something
between once every five minutes and once an hour.
You're aware that this would need much higher transfer speeds than 10kb/s,
right? Otherwise it would still be downloading one batch when the next
became due, if some sort of timeout error didn't strike first.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Then you do admit that your goal is for crossposting ability to become
effectively the exclusive province of the white-collar middle class
and above -- the latte-drinking iMac laptop set, plus of course the
outright rich.
Absolutely not.
Quit flip-flopping! You denied that once before, but when I then said:

"And yet, that is the end result of the policy you are defending. I
suppose that's just a coincidence, though. :s"

your response was to admit that it was *not* a coincidence. But now
you are denying it again! Make up your mind!
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Not in so many words, no. But you certainly implied it.
No, I did not imply it.
Yes, you did. You can't just un-imply something by saying you didn't
mean to imply it. It was, nonetheless, an implication of what you
said. The only way you can retract the implication is to retract one
or more of your overt statements from which said implication followed.

In the instant case, though, that would require you to retract almost
everything you have written in this thread, since all the way back to
the beginning you have insisted that if an action was taken
intentionally by AIOE's administrator, then that excludes the possibility
of its being a mistake. That's a frank assertion of infallibility on
that administrator's part.

You've made such assertions in:

<s2ja63$sn1$***@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>

<s2k45s$r40$***@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>

<s2m7om$qfd$***@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
(clearly establishes that you believe "mistake" and "deliberate choice"
are mutually exclusive where the AIOE admin is concerned, i.e. they are
not capable of making a deliberate choice that proves to be mistaken,
i.e. their decision-making process is infallible)

<s2ontc$jrn$***@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net>
(assertion without evidence that the crosspost block is not a mistake,
even though a) it clearly is and b) such an extraordinary claim should
carry a high burden of proof. Evidently, to Mr. Taylor, that the AIOE
admin said a thing is proof enough of that thing, i.e. the AIOE admin
is also infallible as a source of factual statements as well as
decisions, i.e. is omniscient ala God.)

You would have to retract all of those statements, especially the
last two, to retract the implication that you consider AIOE's admin to
be as infallible as God.

As for the implication that you consider questioning the decisions of
said admin to be blasphemy, that follows more or less directly, but
also is implied by your behavior. You seem to find it offensive that I
do not just accept the decision at issue without question, or show a
sufficient amount of deference (e.g., begging to be granted some
exemption, as if asking for a kingly indulgence, or praying to a deity,
rather than asserting my right to use an online service as it was meant
and indeed explicitly *designed* to be used). You clearly evince a strong
emotional need to fight back against the message of my posts, and to
defend AIOE's admin from any mere suggestion that they might have committed
a blunder or decided unwisely -- even, especially even, when they have
taken a precipitate action that is unprecedently severe in its magnitude
and scope, without consulting anyone first, and which has severe side
effects, which in short is pretty much guaranteed to have been the wrong
decision. Your *behavior* is that of an adherent defending their religious
beliefs against a perceived attack, not that of an intellectual defending
a factual claim about the universe but open to persuasion that that claim
might be wrong.

The thing is, you can retract your previous words, but you can't retract
the pattern of your behavior thus far, and that pattern clearly establishes
that you revere the AIOE admin and hold them as beyond reproach, rejecting
any suggestion of fallibility on their part in an evidence-immune fashion.
This is the behavior of a cultist, and puts you in the same category as
QAnon followers and Scientologists.
Post by Grant Taylor
I said it's their decision to make. Many times.
1) Live with it
2) Switch to a different provider.
You explicitly leave out "convince them that it's a mistake", thus
*again* implying your belief in the admin's infallibility.

Your every post reveals again your beliefs, regardless of your efforts to
deny them.

Meanwhile, chew on this:

AIOE's admin is a human being.

AIOE's admin is as fallible as human beings generally tend to be.

AIOE's admin has, in fact, made a mistake in the instant case (and has
doubled down on it by letting it remain in effect for several whole days
now, effectively crippling the usability of their server for the entire
user base).

*You* have made a mistake by putting them on a pedestal and refusing to
accept even quite clear evidence of their fallibility when it was presented
to you.
Absurd Burd
2021-03-16 19:19:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Oh, that's right, you suggested that I *grovel* to be released from
it, rather than argue rationally against it.
No, I did not.
repeated it in several subsequent messages, too. You suggested that I
grovel to the admin to please, please let me crosspost again, please?
And I said I refuse. I should not need to beg permission to exercise such
a basic function of usenet.
Post by Grant Taylor
You can easily schedule a cron job to make a UUCP ""call however often
you want to. Once a minute is trivial to do. I'd probably do something
between once every five minutes and once an hour.
You're aware that this would need much higher transfer speeds than 10kb/s,
right? Otherwise it would still be downloading one batch when the next
became due, if some sort of timeout error didn't strike first.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Then you do admit that your goal is for crossposting ability to become
effectively the exclusive province of the white-collar middle class
and above -- the latte-drinking iMac laptop set, plus of course the
outright rich.
Absolutely not.
"And yet, that is the end result of the policy you are defending. I
suppose that's just a coincidence, though. :s"
your response was to admit that it was *not* a coincidence. But now
you are denying it again! Make up your mind!
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Not in so many words, no. But you certainly implied it.
No, I did not imply it.
Yes, you did. You can't just un-imply something by saying you didn't
mean to imply it. It was, nonetheless, an implication of what you
said. The only way you can retract the implication is to retract one
or more of your overt statements from which said implication followed.
In the instant case, though, that would require you to retract almost
everything you have written in this thread, since all the way back to
the beginning you have insisted that if an action was taken
intentionally by AIOE's administrator, then that excludes the possibility
of its being a mistake. That's a frank assertion of infallibility on
that administrator's part.
(clearly establishes that you believe "mistake" and "deliberate choice"
are mutually exclusive where the AIOE admin is concerned, i.e. they are
not capable of making a deliberate choice that proves to be mistaken,
i.e. their decision-making process is infallible)
(assertion without evidence that the crosspost block is not a mistake,
even though a) it clearly is and b) such an extraordinary claim should
carry a high burden of proof. Evidently, to Mr. Taylor, that the AIOE
admin said a thing is proof enough of that thing, i.e. the AIOE admin
is also infallible as a source of factual statements as well as
decisions, i.e. is omniscient ala God.)
You would have to retract all of those statements, especially the
last two, to retract the implication that you consider AIOE's admin to
be as infallible as God.
As for the implication that you consider questioning the decisions of
said admin to be blasphemy, that follows more or less directly, but
also is implied by your behavior. You seem to find it offensive that I
do not just accept the decision at issue without question, or show a
sufficient amount of deference (e.g., begging to be granted some
exemption, as if asking for a kingly indulgence, or praying to a deity,
rather than asserting my right to use an online service as it was meant
and indeed explicitly *designed* to be used). You clearly evince a strong
emotional need to fight back against the message of my posts, and to
defend AIOE's admin from any mere suggestion that they might have committed
a blunder or decided unwisely -- even, especially even, when they have
taken a precipitate action that is unprecedently severe in its magnitude
and scope, without consulting anyone first, and which has severe side
effects, which in short is pretty much guaranteed to have been the wrong
decision. Your *behavior* is that of an adherent defending their religious
beliefs against a perceived attack, not that of an intellectual defending
a factual claim about the universe but open to persuasion that that claim
might be wrong.
The thing is, you can retract your previous words, but you can't retract
the pattern of your behavior thus far, and that pattern clearly establishes
that you revere the AIOE admin and hold them as beyond reproach, rejecting
any suggestion of fallibility on their part in an evidence-immune fashion.
This is the behavior of a cultist, and puts you in the same category as
QAnon followers and Scientologists.
Post by Grant Taylor
I said it's their decision to make. Many times.
1) Live with it
2) Switch to a different provider.
You explicitly leave out "convince them that it's a mistake", thus
*again* implying your belief in the admin's infallibility.
Your every post reveals again your beliefs, regardless of your efforts to
deny them.
AIOE's admin is a human being.
AIOE's admin is as fallible as human beings generally tend to be.
AIOE's admin has, in fact, made a mistake in the instant case (and has
doubled down on it by letting it remain in effect for several whole days
now, effectively crippling the usability of their server for the entire
user base).
*You* have made a mistake by putting them on a pedestal and refusing to
accept even quite clear evidence of their fallibility when it was presented
to you.
You're silly. That was a great rant though, thanks for the laugh.
--
Absurd Burd <https://tinyurl.com/ht3733er>
Grant Taylor
2021-03-16 21:26:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Yes, you did,
No I did not.

Asking for clarification is not the same thing as asking you to grovel.
Post by G. Singh
You're aware that this would need much higher transfer speeds than
10kb/s, right? Otherwise it would still be downloading one batch when
the next became due, if some sort of timeout error didn't strike first.
I am aware that a much higher transfer speed is NOT required.

The average daily transfer of text newsgroups for the last 28 days has
been 61.6 MB.

The maximum for any single day in that period was 80.4 MB.

For the sake of the discussion I assumed 100 MB per day and did the math
with that number. Wolfram Alpha (I find it convenient) states that
9.2<something> kbps was needed. I rounded up to 10 kbps.

So I'm quite confident that you can run a text only news server on 10
kbps Internet connection.
I'm not flip flopping.
Post by G. Singh
"And yet, that is the end result of the policy you are defending. I
suppose that's just a coincidence, though. :s"
It's not a /coincidence/ because it's a /direct/ /result/ of the policy
that AIOE has put into place.
Post by G. Singh
your response was to admit that it was *not* a coincidence. But now
you are denying it again! Make up your mind!
It was not a /coincidence/. There is /direct/ and /expected/
/correlation/ between AIOE's policy.

A coincidence is defined as "a remarkable concurrence of events or
circumstances /without/ apparent causal connection.

AIOE's policy change was a /direct/ connection. Thus it is not a
/coincidence/.
Post by G. Singh
Yes, you did. You can't just un-imply something by saying you didn't
mean to imply it. It was, nonetheless, an implication of what you
said. The only way you can retract the implication is to retract one
or more of your overt statements from which said implication followed.
In the instant case, though, that would require you to retract
almost everything you have written in this thread, since all the
way back to the beginning you have insisted that if an action was
taken intentionally by AIOE's administrator, then that excludes
the possibility of its being a mistake. That's a frank assertion of
infallibility on that administrator's part.
A mistake is defined as "an action or judgement that is misguided or wrong".

AIOE's action was neither misguided nor wrong. The action was chosen
deliberately. The results that you are complaining about were the
expected and desired results.

Therefore it was not a /mistake/.
Post by G. Singh
that you believe "mistake" and "deliberate choice" are mutually
exclusive where the AIOE admin is concerned, i.e. they are not capable
of making a deliberate choice that proves to be mistaken, i.e. their
decision-making process is infallible)
The decision that AIOE had the expected and intended results.
Post by G. Singh
evidence that the crosspost block is not a mistake, even though a)
it clearly is and b) such an extraordinary claim should carry a high
burden of proof. Evidently, to Mr. Taylor, that the AIOE admin said
a thing is proof enough of that thing,
I have said many times that an administrator is free to run their news
server as they see fit.

It does not matter what others think of their decisions.

It's the administrator's prerogative.
Post by G. Singh
i.e. the AIOE admin is also infallible as a source of factual
statements as well as decisions, i.e. is omniscient ala God.)
You would have to retract all of those statements, especially the
last two, to retract the implication that you consider AIOE's admin
to be as infallible as God.
I have never implied anything of the sort.

You are perverting my statements to fit your own narrative.
Post by G. Singh
As for the implication that you consider questioning the decisions
of said admin to be blasphemy, that follows more or less directly,
but also is implied by your behavior.
You can question and disagree with it to your heart's content.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that server administrators have
the freedom to run their server the way that they want to.

Your questions, agreement or not, opinion, etc. do not matter in the
context of how an administrator runs their system.
Post by G. Singh
You seem to find it offensive that I do not just accept the decision
at issue without question,
Nope. I do not find it offensive.

I am finding you to be annoying.
Post by G. Singh
or show a sufficient amount of deference (e.g., begging to be granted
some exemption, as if asking for a kingly indulgence, or praying to a
deity, rather than asserting my right to use an online service as it
was meant and indeed explicitly *designed* to be used).
I was asking for information that AIOE might consider in changing their
mind.

But you have put far more effort into refusing to provide any
information than you would have to provide one example. E.g.

I wanted to post to <alt.<something> group> and <some other group> to
discuss <topic>.
Post by G. Singh
You clearly evince a strong emotional need to fight back against
the message of my posts, and to defend AIOE's admin from any mere
suggestion that they might have committed a blunder or decided unwisely
It doesn't matter how wise or unwise AIOE's decision was. All that
matters is that it's AIOE's decision to make.

If you think I'm focusing on AOIE, then feel free to substitute any
other administrator / organization name in place of AIOE. I was using
AIOE in this conversation because it's more germane and on topic than
saying Eternal-September or Google.
Post by G. Singh
even, especially even, when they have taken a precipitate action
that is unprecedently severe in its magnitude and scope, without
consulting anyone first,
Administrators don't /need/ to consult anyone first. They have the
freedom and authority to make any change they want to their systems at
their whim.
Post by G. Singh
and which has severe side effects,
So what.
Post by G. Singh
which in short is pretty much guaranteed to have been the wrong
decision.
Wrong or not does not matter. It's AIOE's decision to make.

You brought it up and AIOE confirmed that the effects that you are
complaining about are the result of the decision that they made.
Post by G. Singh
Your *behavior* is that of an adherent defending their religious
beliefs against a perceived attack,
Nope. Not quite.

I do am adherently defending that an administrator has the right to
choose how to run their own server / service.

AIOE happens to be an example of what I'm defending.
Post by G. Singh
not that of an intellectual defending a factual claim about the
universe but open to persuasion that that claim might be wrong.
It doesn't matter if the decision is right or wrong. It is /the/
/administrator's/ /choice/.

AIOE heard your complaint and confirmed their position.
Post by G. Singh
The thing is, you can retract your previous words, but you can't
retract the pattern of your behavior thus far, and that pattern clearly
establishes that you revere the AIOE admin and hold them as beyond
reproach, rejecting any suggestion of fallibility on their part in
an evidence-immune fashion.
Not quite.

Not AIOE in specific.

System / service administrators. Of which I am one.

The statement that I've repeated more than anything else is that it's
the system / service administrator's choice. They can do what ever they
want to.

You are free to question their choice. You are free to ask them why
they made the choice that they made.

But, even after asking, it's still the system / service administrator's
choice.
Post by G. Singh
This is the behavior of a cultist, and puts you in the same category
as QAnon followers and Scientologists.
Nope. I'm none of those.

I am a system administrator. And my word is law on my systems. You can
ask me to change it. I will ask for information as to why I should
change it. If you provide sufficient information I will consider your
request for me to change it. There is a better than average chance that
I will decide to retain my original decision, despite your information.

I am affording AIOE (or Eternal-September or Google or ... or ...) the
same decision making process that I use myself.

Your opinion or belief about the process doesn't matter to me.
Post by G. Singh
You explicitly leave out "convince them that it's a mistake", thus
*again* implying your belief in the admin's infallibility.
I don't care if the result is proper or improper. The fact remains that
it is the system / service administrator's choice to make.
Post by G. Singh
Your every post reveals again your beliefs, regardless of your efforts
to deny them.
Your interpretation of my statements have apparently mislead you into
thinking I believe something that I do not believe.
Post by G. Singh
AIOE's admin is a human being.
I assume as much.
Post by G. Singh
AIOE's admin is as fallible as human beings generally tend to be.
Sure.
Post by G. Singh
AIOE's admin has, in fact, made a mistake in the instant case
It is not a mistake. It was a deliberate action with the expected results.
Post by G. Singh
(and has doubled down on it by letting it remain in effect for several
whole days now,
They've actually tripled down on it by replying stating "at the moment,
crosspost is forbidden for every alt.* group."
Post by G. Singh
effectively crippling the usability of their server for the entire
user base).
I don't believe it has crippled the usability of their server.

Nobody else has complained.

Cross posting is still allowed in other hierarchies.

Are you meaning to imply that all of AIOE's users both use the alt.*
hierarchy /and/ cross post? Or at least would prior to the new rule.

Ultimately nobody is forcing you to use AIOE's service. You are free to
use a different news service.
Post by G. Singh
*You* have made a mistake by putting them on a pedestal and refusing
to accept even quite clear evidence of their fallibility when it was
presented to you.
I have not put anybody on a pedestal.

I have repeatedly said that it's the system / service administrator's
choice to do what they want to.

I have repeatedly said that it doesn't matter if the choice that is made
is right or wrong. It's the administrator's choice to make.

Given that the choice was made deliberately, knowing what the results
would be, it's not a mistake.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-17 03:03:23 UTC
Permalink
I'm snipping most of it this time because mostly it's just you denying
having said things that you said in your previous post, and other silliness
like that.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
"And yet, that is the end result of the policy you are defending. I
suppose that's just a coincidence, though. :s"
It's not a /coincidence/ because it's a /direct/ /result/ of the policy
that AIOE has put into place.
Post by G. Singh
your response was to admit that it was *not* a coincidence. But now
you are denying it again! Make up your mind!
It was not a /coincidence/. There is /direct/ and /expected/
/correlation/ between AIOE's policy.
A coincidence is defined as "a remarkable concurrence of events or
circumstances /without/ apparent causal connection.
AIOE's policy change was a /direct/ connection. Thus it is not a
/coincidence/.
And you support and defend AIOE's policy change. Therefore you support
and defend moving crossposting ability behind the "urban white-collar
middle class and rich people only" paywall. Which is yet another thing
that you were earlier denying you were supporting.

Why do you think only wealthy people (top 10% or so by income) should
be permitted to crosspost anymore?
Post by Grant Taylor
A mistake is defined as "an action or judgement that is misguided or wrong".
AIOE's action was neither misguided nor wrong.
It is, self-evidently, both.
Post by Grant Taylor
The action was chosen deliberately.
That doesn't make it a wise, or a sensible, choice. Starting a war in
Afghanistan was an action chosen deliberately by George W. Bush. You'd
be hard-pressed these days to find many Republicans, let alone Democrats,
now who think that wasn't a mistake.

It's quite possibly the second stupidest decision ever made in all of
human history, in fact.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
i.e. the AIOE admin is also infallible as a source of factual
statements as well as decisions, i.e. is omniscient ala God.)
You would have to retract all of those statements, especially the
last two, to retract the implication that you consider AIOE's admin
to be as infallible as God.
I have never implied anything of the sort.
I have just painstakingly gone through a detailed proof that that
does, in fact, follow by implication from the things you said in four
posts. If you want to retract that implication, you have to retract
those things you said. Do you retract them?
Post by Grant Taylor
I am finding you to be annoying.
Religious nuts usually find facts and evidence that contradict their
beliefs to be annoying, along with those who keep reminding them of those
facts and evidence.

The only solution is to stop being a religious nut and become open to
persuasion through facts and evidence.
Post by Grant Taylor
But you have put far more effort into refusing to provide any
information than you would have to provide one example. E.g.
I wanted to post to <alt.<something> group> and <some other group> to
discuss <topic>.
"Papers, please?"

I refuse to submit to the notion that I should have to justify each
such thing to some authority figure before I will *maybe* be permitted.
It's demeaning and violates the very spirit with which Usenet was
founded.
Post by Grant Taylor
It doesn't matter how wise or unwise AIOE's decision was.
Don't be ridiculous. Of course it matters.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
even, especially even, when they have taken a precipitate action
that is unprecedently severe in its magnitude and scope, without
consulting anyone first,
Administrators don't /need/ to consult anyone first.
Technically true, and also completely irrelevant. It is extremely
*unwise* not to do so, especially when contemplating doing something
drastic. It's also extremely *rude* to make major policy changes without
giving, at a *bare* minimum, advance notice.
Post by Grant Taylor
Wrong or not does not matter.
Of course it matters.

Why are you so emotionally attached to the idea that the AIOE admin
is infallible, and therefore has no need for accountability and bears
no responsibility toward others at all because anything they do will
automatically end up being for the best because infallible?

It's ridiculous.
Post by Grant Taylor
It doesn't matter if the decision is right or wrong.
Of course it matters.
Post by Grant Taylor
Not quite.
Not AIOE in specific.
System / service administrators. Of which I am one.
Oh, is *that* it? If you admit that the AIOE admin is fallible, and thus
has a responsibility of stewardship that it is possible for them to fail,
the more so if they are not open to feedback and do not second-guess
impulses to do drastic but almost-certainly-wrong things, nor seek
feedback about such notions or consult with those that would be adversely
affected, nor anything else than just do what they feel like doing as a
knee jerk impulse of the moment, then you would be admitting that *you*
are fallible, and that *you* are responsible to other people for the
consequences of your decisions?

So it's all about you wanting to evade accountability for your *own*
actions, and furthermore to square doing so with your conscience, assuming
you even have one.

Such a boring, ordinary, *sordid* motive, but typical of humans. I shouldn't
be surprised.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
This is the behavior of a cultist, and puts you in the same category
as QAnon followers and Scientologists.
Nope. I'm none of those.
You are not, specifically, a QAnon follower or a Scientologist, perhaps,
but you are behaving like a cultist.
Post by Grant Taylor
I don't care if the result is proper or improper.
And that, right there, puts you on the wrong side of morality.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Your every post reveals again your beliefs, regardless of your efforts
to deny them.
Your interpretation of my statements have apparently mislead you into
thinking I believe something that I do not believe.
I have not been misled. It follows from the things you have said, as surely
as a mathematical theorem follows from its premises.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
AIOE's admin has, in fact, made a mistake in the instant case
It is not a mistake.
It is a mistake.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
effectively crippling the usability of their server for the entire
user base).
I don't believe it has crippled the usability of their server.
That's because you're an idiot and/or brainwashed cultist.
Post by Grant Taylor
Nobody else has complained.
Nobody else has any need to since it would just be duplicative of
mine, and since the thing being complained about is self-evidently
stupid and wrong.
Post by Grant Taylor
Are you meaning to imply that all of AIOE's users both use the alt.*
hierarchy /and/ cross post? Or at least would prior to the new rule.
The vast majority, I should expect, but possibly not *all*.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
*You* have made a mistake by putting them on a pedestal and refusing
to accept even quite clear evidence of their fallibility when it was
presented to you.
I have not put anybody on a pedestal.
Liar.

And we now know that you have done so in order, by proxy, to put
*yourself* on it and hold yourself above any notion of responsibility
for, or accountability to, other human beings.

That's despicable.
Grant Taylor
2021-03-17 04:23:15 UTC
Permalink
I'm no longer going to bother responding to things that I've already
responded to multiple times unless your statement or my reply
substantively changes.
Post by G. Singh
That doesn't make it a wise, or a sensible, choice.
I never said it was a wise or sensible choice.

I'm not judging AIOE on their actions explicitly because it is their
action to make.
Post by G. Singh
Starting a war in Afghanistan was an action chosen deliberately
by George W. Bush. You'd be hard-pressed these days to find many
Republicans, let alone Democrats, now who think that wasn't a mistake.
That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Post by G. Singh
Religious nuts usually find facts and evidence that contradict their
beliefs to be annoying, along with those who keep reminding them of
those facts and evidence.
You're more annoying like a troll than a religious nut.

In fact, I'll say this:

G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that I should stop feeding you.
Post by G. Singh
It's demeaning and violates the very spirit with which Usenet was
founded.
I have not made any such demand. Nor have I threatened any consequences
for not doing so.

I have asked for information.

You have refused to provide it.
Post by G. Singh
Don't be ridiculous. Of course it matters.
No it does not.
Post by G. Singh
Technically true,
Point.
Game.
Match.
I win.
...by your own words.
Post by G. Singh
and also completely irrelevant.
It is quite relevant.
Post by G. Singh
It is extremely *unwise* not to do so,
How wise or unwise an action is does not change the fact that it is
AIOE's decision to take said action or not.
Post by G. Singh
especially when contemplating doing something drastic.
Again, it's still AIOE's choice, independent of size of decision.
Post by G. Singh
It's also extremely *rude* to make major policy changes without giving,
at a *bare* minimum, advance notice.
I can see how AIOE's choice could be considered rude.

But again, that does not change the fact that it's AIOE's choice.
Post by G. Singh
Of course it matters.
No it does not matter if it's wrong or not.

Being wrong or not does not change the fact that it's AIOE's choice.
Post by G. Singh
Why are you so emotionally attached to the idea that the AIOE admin
is infallible,
I have never said anything to that effect.

I have said that it's AIOE's choice. Independent of what people think
of AIOE's choice. It is still AIOE's choice.
Post by G. Singh
and therefore has no need for accountability and bears no
responsibility toward others at all because anything they do will
automatically end up being for the best because infallible?
AIOE is not infallible. I have never said nor implied such.

You insist on misconstruing what I say to fit your narrative.
Post by G. Singh
Oh, is *that* it? If you admit that the AIOE admin is fallible,
/me points to the statement above. Here's a quote to make it easy for you.

AIOE is not infallible.

I'll remove the double negative to make it easier for you.

AIOE is fallible.
Post by G. Singh
and thus has a responsibility of stewardship that it is possible for
them to fail,
Sure. It's possible for AIOE to fail.
Post by G. Singh
the more so if they are not open to feedback
I have seen no evidence that AIOE is not open to feedback.

I have seen where AIOE has responded to your feedback. It just happens
that AIOE did not change their decision based on your feedback. But
such is the nature of feedback.
Post by G. Singh
and do not second-guess impulses to do drastic
I've seen how AIOE has operated their news server as a peer Usenet
administrator for the better part of a decade. I have never seen them
do anything that causes me to question them. Particularly when viewing
things from the Usenet at large level.
Post by G. Singh
but almost-certainly-wrong things,
So what.

AIOE's action does not /negatively/ impact Usenet at large.

It /may/ negatively impact /some/ of AIOE's user base. But that's
/AIOE's/ business. How AIOE runs /their/ server is /not/ /my/ /business/.

AIOE /users/ can complain about things, they can even ask AIOE to change
them. But ultimately AIOE /users/ are beholden to the way that AIOE
runs their servers. At least as long as they remain AIOE users.

I'm quite confident that AIOE is not forcing people to use AIOE much
less preventing them from using other news servers.
Post by G. Singh
nor seek feedback about such notions or consult with those that would
be adversely affected,
Wait a minute.

Consulting and feedback sound suspiciously close to users providing
information about how they are being impacted /and/ details on how they
are being impacted.

Details like those that I have asked for which you have refused to
provide. Save for one vague overview, which was not reproducible.
Post by G. Singh
nor anything else than just do what they feel like doing as a knee
jerk impulse of the moment,
It doesn't matter how much of an impulse or thought out the decision
was. Because the timing and amount of thought put into a decision do
not change the fact that it's AIOE's decision to make.
Post by G. Singh
then you would be admitting that *you* are fallible, and that *you*
are responsible to other people for the consequences of your decisions?
Yes, I'm fallible. I'm human and male. Thus I have two strikes against
me out of the gate.

I'm responsible as in there are ramifications / consequences for my
decisions.

But that doesn't change the fact that they are /my/ decisions to make.

What you think of my decisions or how it inconveniences you have zero
influence on /my/ decisions.
Post by G. Singh
So it's all about you wanting to evade accountability for your *own*
actions,
I'm not trying to evade anything.
Post by G. Singh
and furthermore to square doing so with your conscience, assuming
you even have one.
My conscience is quite content with a server / service administrator's
choices are theirs to make. Period. End of story.
Post by G. Singh
You are not, specifically, a QAnon follower or a Scientologist,
perhaps, but you are behaving like a cultist.
Nope.
Post by G. Singh
And that, right there, puts you on the wrong side of morality.
Allow me to clarify, because you either fail to grasp the concept or
refuse to do so:

I don't care if the result of AIOE's decision is proper or improper.
The proper ness of AIOE's decision does not do anything to change the
fact that it's AIOE's decision.
Post by G. Singh
That's because you're an idiot and/or brainwashed cultist.
No, it's not.

I'm receiving thousands of articles a day from AIOE. So, I'm convinced
that the people that posted those thousands of articles to AIOE are
quite successfully using AIOE.

You are still among them.

You have posted (at least) two articles to AIOE quite successfully
without cross posting to alt.*.
Post by G. Singh
Nobody else has any need to since it would just be duplicative of
mine, and since the thing being complained about is self-evidently
stupid and wrong.
That is your opinion.

Have you seen how prevalent the "me too" mentality is?
Post by G. Singh
The vast majority, I should expect, but possibly not *all*.
So there is, by your own words, a possibility that at least some of
AIOE's users are not impacted by AIOE's choice?
Post by G. Singh
Liar.
No.
Post by G. Singh
And we now know that you have done so in order, by proxy, to put
*yourself* on it and hold yourself above any notion of responsibility
for, or accountability to, other human beings.
And no.

It's /my/ choice how /I/ run /my/ servers / services.

It's /AIOE's/ choice how /they/ run /their/ servers / service.

It's /Eternal-September's/ choice how /they/ run /their/ servers / service.

It's /Google's/ choice how /they/ run /their/ servers / service.

Notice a pattern hear? The server administrators get to choose how they
run their own servers.
Post by G. Singh
That's despicable.
What order do you put your socks on when you get dressed? Do you put
the left one on first? Or is it the right? Or do you alternate? Or
some other pattern? Does it really matter? Or is it /your/ choice and
other people have no business telling you how to put your socks on?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-17 06:53:22 UTC
Permalink
Grant Taylor <***@tnetconsulting.net> writes:

[A mix of repetitive tripe and personal attacks has been elided]
Post by Grant Taylor
I can see how AIOE's choice could be considered rude.
Point.
Game.
Match.
I win.
...by your own words.
Post by Grant Taylor
Being wrong or not does not change the fact that it's AIOE's choice.
But it does determine whether I was correct, and you were wrong, when
you claimed AIOE's admin did nothing wrong, now, doesn't it, you
evasive little twerp?
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Why are you so emotionally attached to the idea that the AIOE admin
is infallible,
I have never said anything to that effect.
Liar.
Post by Grant Taylor
I have said that it's AIOE's choice. Independent of what people think
of AIOE's choice. It is still AIOE's choice.
Note the motte-and-bailey character of this "Grant Taylor" nut's
argument. When a bad move by AIOE's admin is called out as such he
comes out swinging, essentially arguing that AIOE can do no wrong.
When proof that, in fact, AIOE can and did do wrong is presented,
he retreats back into the motte of "it is still AIOE's choice".

It was Ted Bundy's choice to kill a few people. If the argument
you're using could equally be used to defend a serial killer, then
there is something wrong with either it or you.
Post by Grant Taylor
AIOE is not infallible.
Correct.
Post by Grant Taylor
I have never said nor implied such.
Wrong.
Post by Grant Taylor
Sure. It's possible for AIOE to fail.
Then why won't you admit that they DID fail?
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
the more so if they are not open to feedback
I have seen no evidence that AIOE is not open to feedback.
That this colossal blunder has now gone uncorrected for over four days,
and this despite the "[urgent]" in the subject line of this thread,
would seem to furnish ample evidence, actually.
Post by Grant Taylor
I've seen how AIOE has operated their news server as a peer Usenet
administrator for the better part of a decade. I have never seen them
do anything that causes me to question them.
Me neither.

Until now.
Post by Grant Taylor
It /may/
does
Post by Grant Taylor
negatively impact /some/
most
Post by Grant Taylor
of AIOE's user base. But that's
a wrongdoing.
Post by Grant Taylor
I'm quite confident that AIOE is not forcing people to use AIOE much
less preventing them from using other news servers.
Far from it. They're driving their users to other news servers in droves,
to where they'll be lucky if they still have any left by the end of the
week if they don't reverse course on this colossal idiocy soon. This
makes the Charge of the Light Brigade look like genius by comparison.
What's next? Microsoft stuffing its expensive, paid-for operating
system and other software full of advertising and taking away users'
control over the timing of its crash-prone updating process?

Oh, wait.

:/
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
nor seek feedback about such notions or consult with those that would
be adversely affected,
Wait a minute.
Consulting and feedback sound suspiciously close to users providing
information about how they are being impacted /and/ details on how they
are being impacted.
No, it's consulting with them *before* they are impacted and backing off
from a hare-brained idea if enough of the user base raise objections.
Post by Grant Taylor
It doesn't matter how much of an impulse or thought out the decision
was.
Don't be ridiculous. What do you think would have happened if Sherman
had decided where to march next by throwing darts at a map or consulting
astrologers? Most likely we'd have only 20 or so stars in the flag now
instead of 50, and a fascist slave-holding state menacing our southern
border instead of a ragtag assortment of poor refugees who aren't a threat
to anyone outside of conservatives' fretfully dismal imaginations. The
moon missions would have been launched from Hawaii or the Virgin Islands.
Assuming we didn't lose World War II first, of course. Being half as big
and with a likely additional Axis power right on our doorstep would have
made things a wee bit more difficult, I expect ...
Post by Grant Taylor
Yes, I'm fallible. I'm human and male. Thus I have two strikes against
me out of the gate.
That's sexist, though uncommonly it's sexist against men.
Post by Grant Taylor
I'm responsible as in there are ramifications / consequences for my
decisions.
But that doesn't change the fact that they are /my/ decisions to make.
It does mean that they can constitute screwups, though, and so can the
AIOE admin's.
Post by Grant Taylor
What you think of my decisions or how it inconveniences you have zero
influence on /my/ decisions.
And that guarantees that you'll make bad decisions, and that some of them
will be doozies. Not caring how your actions impact others is evidence of
being a sociopath, for crying out loud.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
So it's all about you wanting to evade accountability for your *own*
actions,
I'm not trying to evade anything.
No, you've given that up as futile and are now pretty much point-blank
admitting that you are a sociopath. That's when you're not backpedaling
furiously away from your earlier laughable claim that AIOE didn't fuck
up catastrophically four days ago.
Post by Grant Taylor
My conscience is quite content
Sociopath.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
You are not, specifically, a QAnon follower or a Scientologist,
perhaps, but you are behaving like a cultist.
Nope.
You were, though you seem to have changed tack now.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
And that, right there, puts you on the wrong side of morality.
Allow me to clarify, because you either fail to grasp the concept or
I don't care
I seem to recall that was the slogan of Mussolini's blackshirts.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
That's because you're an idiot and/or brainwashed cultist.
No, it's not.
Well, it's now looking more and more like that was a mask you put on,
and the reality is "pathological liar, sociopath, and probable fascist"
instead.
Post by Grant Taylor
I'm receiving thousands of articles a day from AIOE.
Many of them no doubt propagating through them rather than originating
at them.
Post by Grant Taylor
You are still among them.
You have posted (at least) two articles to AIOE quite successfully
without cross posting to alt.*.
Aside from this thread, all of my usenet activities are on hold for
the fourth day running now. Things I'd been meaning to do are slipping
further and further behind schedule. Frankly you have no idea what else
I do online, and, equally frankly, it's none of your business, nor
(beyond the fact that I stay within the rules laid out in the terms of
service) is it any of the AIOE admin's business either. I don't have to
explain, let alone justify, anything to either of you, absent a bright-
line rule violation that I have not committed, but hypothetically might
in the future (though I don't have any intentions to, so it's highly
unlikely).
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Nobody else has any need to since it would just be duplicative of
mine, and since the thing being complained about is self-evidently
stupid and wrong.
That is your opinion.
No, it is self-evidently true. You are just too obstinate to see it, or
else you're simply lying again.
Post by Grant Taylor
So there is, by your own words, a possibility that at least some of
AIOE's users are not impacted by AIOE's choice?
That would hardly suffice to justify the obviously indefensible. You'd
be just as well to point out how many people were *not* murdered by Ted
Bundy, by way of an attempt to defend him.

Again, if your argument can as easily be repurposed to defend a serial
killer, then there is something wrong with it, or with you.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
Liar.
No.
Provably so.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
And we now know that you have done so in order, by proxy, to put
*yourself* on it and hold yourself above any notion of responsibility
for, or accountability to, other human beings.
And no.
It's /my/ choice how /I/ run /my/ servers / services.
Spoken like someone who doesn't give a shit if his choices harm other
people, including a user base that is dependent on him for things. Aka
a sociopath.
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by G. Singh
That's despicable.
What order do you put your socks on when you get dressed? Do you put
the left one on first? Or is it the right? Or do you alternate? Or
some other pattern? Does it really matter? Or is it /your/ choice and
other people have no business telling you how to put your socks on?
Other people are not negatively impacted by how I put my socks on. If they
could be negatively impacted by that, I would take such effects into
consideration in deciding how to go about it. It's called being considerate
and polite rather than a ruthless socipoath. You ought to try it sometime.
Steve
2021-03-17 10:25:06 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 16 Mar 2021 22:23:15 -0600, Grant Taylor wrote:
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that I should stop feeding you.
I would if I were you.
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever and he
has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a bunch is because
he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His 'Kensi' sock posts through
AIOE.
Sn!pe
2021-03-17 12:33:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that I should stop feeding you.
I would if I were you.
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever and he
has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a bunch is because
he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His 'Kensi' sock posts through
AIOE.
I agree. (and so does Absurd Burd)
--
^Ï^


My pet rock Gordon just is.
Grant Taylor
2021-03-17 15:54:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
I would if I were you.
I believe I'll go one step further before the end of the day, as soon as
time permits.

I am planing on banning G.Singh from my servers as soon as I have time
to do so.

Seeing as how it's my server, I'm free to do what I want to. }:-)
Post by Steve
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever and he
has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a bunch is because
he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His 'Kensi' sock posts through
AIOE.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I guess what ever floats your boat.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-03-17 21:32:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that I should stop feeding you.
I would if I were you.
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever and he
has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a bunch is because
he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His 'Kensi' sock posts through
AIOE.
Don't you have anything better to do? Cattle to mutilate, crop circles to
flatten, an invasion to plan, or at least taking the flying saucer in for an
oil change?
Absurd Burd
2021-03-17 21:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that
I should stop feeding you.
I would if I were you.
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever and he
has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a bunch is because
he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His 'Kensi' sock posts through
AIOE.
Don't you have anything better to do? Cattle to mutilate, crop circles to
flatten, an invasion to plan, or at least taking the flying saucer in for an
oil change?
~giggle!~
--
Absurd Burd <https://tinyurl.com/ht3733er>
Nadegda
2021-03-18 00:07:28 UTC
Permalink
Uh-oh, it looks like the paranoid kooks of afn are at it again.

Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that I should stop feeding you.
I would if I were you.
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever and he
has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a bunch is because
he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His 'Kensi' sock posts through
AIOE.
Don't you have anything better to do? Cattle to mutilate, crop circles to
flatten, an invasion to plan, or at least taking the flying saucer in for an
oil change?
LOL

Unless you find their antics amusing, I suggest killfiling both "Steve" and
"Sn!pe" here. Those two paranoid lunatics believe that everyone who posts any
kind of complaint in afn, or here, or e-s.support is some guy who hasn't been
active on Usenet in roughly a quarter-century. I believe the technical term
for what ails them is "Fregoli delusion".

Oh, a word of warning: Sn!pe likes to use sockpuppets. Sometimes a lot of them.
If you can, killfile on "snipe.eternal-september.org" appearing in the Path
header. That will obliterate the vast majority in one fell swoop, like one
Raid ant bait wiping out the whole nest.

Sn!pe, Steve, or both will now follow up to this post to foam about me also
being the "Derbyshire" phantom, because of course they will. In related news,
rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of NKOTB CDs hidden in his
sock drawer and plays them frequently when he thinks nobody is listening, and
that Steve still has an active AOL account.

<snicker>
--
FNVWe Nadegda

"By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with
you." -- Mike Godwin, Aug 13, 2017, 8:03 PM
Checkmate admits that, for all intents and purposes, he carries a teddy
bear in public: <***@news.alt.net>
Steve
2021-03-18 10:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nadegda
Uh-oh, it looks like the paranoid kooks of afn are at it again.
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that I should stop feeding you.
I would if I were you.
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever and he
has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a bunch is because
he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His 'Kensi' sock posts through
AIOE.
Don't you have anything better to do? Cattle to mutilate, crop circles to
flatten, an invasion to plan, or at least taking the flying saucer in for an
oil change?
LOL
Unless you find their antics amusing, I suggest killfiling both "Steve" and
"Sn!pe" here. Those two paranoid lunatics believe that everyone who posts any
kind of complaint in afn, or here, or e-s.support is some guy who hasn't been
active on Usenet in roughly a quarter-century. I believe the technical term
for what ails them is "Fregoli delusion".
Oh, a word of warning: Sn!pe likes to use sockpuppets. Sometimes a lot of them.
If you can, killfile on "snipe.eternal-september.org" appearing in the Path
header. That will obliterate the vast majority in one fell swoop, like one
Raid ant bait wiping out the whole nest.
Sn!pe, Steve, or both will now follow up to this post to foam about me also
being the "Derbyshire" phantom, because of course they will. In related news,
rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of NKOTB CDs hidden in his
sock drawer and plays them frequently when he thinks nobody is listening, and
that Steve still has an active AOL account.
<snicker>
Cor! It's super sexy mistress Nadegda to the rescue!
Show us yer tits, Paul!
Sn!pe
2021-03-18 18:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Post by Nadegda
Uh-oh, it looks like the paranoid kooks of afn are at it again.
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that I should stop feeding you.
I would if I were you.
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever
and he has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a
bunch is because he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His
'Kensi' sock posts through AIOE.
Don't you have anything better to do? Cattle to mutilate, crop circles
to flatten, an invasion to plan, or at least taking the flying saucer
in for an oil change?
LOL
Unless you find their antics amusing, I suggest killfiling both "Steve"
and "Sn!pe" here. Those two paranoid lunatics believe that everyone who
posts any kind of complaint in afn, or here, or e-s.support is some guy
who hasn't been active on Usenet in roughly a quarter-century. I believe
the technical term for what ails them is "Fregoli delusion".
Oh, a word of warning: Sn!pe likes to use sockpuppets. Sometimes a lot
of them. If you can, killfile on "snipe.eternal-september.org" appearing
in the Path header. That will obliterate the vast majority in one fell
swoop, like one Raid ant bait wiping out the whole nest.
Sn!pe, Steve, or both will now follow up to this post to foam about me
also being the "Derbyshire" phantom, because of course they will. In
related news, rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of
NKOTB CDs hidden in his sock drawer and plays them frequently when he
thinks nobody is listening, and that Steve still has an active AOL
account.
<snicker>
Cor! It's super sexy mistress Nadegda to the rescue!
Show us yer tits, Paul!
LOL

All, in unison: OMG, it's the Spamish Inquisition!
Nadgeda: Nobody expects the Spamish Inquisition...
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
G. Singh
2021-03-18 17:12:46 UTC
Permalink
In related news, rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of NKOTB
CDs hidden in his sock drawer and plays them frequently when he thinks nobody
is listening,
No!!

Say it ain't so!
Absurd Burd
2021-03-18 18:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
In related news, rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of
NKOTB CDs hidden in his sock drawer and plays them frequently when
he thinks nobody is listening,
No!!
Say it ain't so!
Hi, Paul. <GBG>

--
Absurd Burd is still looking at you. <https://tinyurl.com/ht3733er>
Nadegda
2021-03-18 18:36:16 UTC
Permalink
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
In related news, rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of NKOTB
CDs hidden in his sock drawer and plays them frequently when he thinks nobody
is listening,
No!!
Say it ain't so!
Actually, that one was Weezer, I think. :)
--
FNVWe Nadegda

"By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with
you." -- Mike Godwin, Aug 13, 2017, 8:03 PM
Checkmate admits that, for all intents and purposes, he carries a teddy
bear in public: <***@news.alt.net>
G. Singh
2021-03-19 22:19:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nadegda
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
In related news, rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of NKOTB
CDs hidden in his sock drawer and plays them frequently when he thinks nobody
is listening,
No!!
Say it ain't so!
Actually, that one was Weezer, I think. :)
What?
Absurd Burd
2021-03-19 22:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nadegda
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
In related news, rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of
NKOTB CDs hidden in his sock drawer and plays them frequently when he
thinks nobody is listening,
No!!
Say it ain't so!
Actually, that one was Weezer, I think. :)
What?
Quite. Also, what is a NKOTB?

P.S. Paulie wanna cracker?
--
Absurd Burd <https://tinyurl.com/ht3733er>
Nadegda
2021-03-20 00:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by Nadegda
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
In related news, rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of NKOTB
CDs hidden in his sock drawer and plays them frequently when he thinks nobody
is listening,
No!!
Say it ain't so!
Actually, that one was Weezer, I think. :)
What?
"Say It Ain't So" was Weezer. NKOTB stuff was way, way worse. :)
--
FNVWe Nadegda

"By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with
you." -- Mike Godwin, Aug 13, 2017, 8:03 PM
Checkmate admits that, for all intents and purposes, he carries a teddy
bear in public: <***@news.alt.net>
G. Singh
2021-03-24 12:14:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nadegda
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by Nadegda
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
In related news, rumor has it that Sn!pe keeps an extensive library of NKOTB
CDs hidden in his sock drawer and plays them frequently when he thinks nobody
is listening,
No!!
Say it ain't so!
Actually, that one was Weezer, I think. :)
What?
"Say It Ain't So" was Weezer. NKOTB stuff was way, way worse. :)
I didn't even know that there was a song with that name.
Steve
2021-03-18 10:12:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
G. Singh, I believe that you are a troll and that I should stop feeding you.
I would if I were you.
Paul Derbyshire, (autistic troll savant), can keep this up forever and he
has in other groups. The reason he's got his panties in a bunch is because
he likes his socks to use different NSPs. His 'Kensi' sock posts through
AIOE.
Don't you have anything better to do? Cattle to mutilate, crop circles to
flatten, an invasion to plan, or at least taking the flying saucer in for an
oil change?
Actually, I do have lots of better things to do. I'm passing by.
You're stuck here.
Winston
2021-03-15 22:50:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Grant Taylor
A $5 Raspberry Pi Zero can easily handle the 50-100 MB of news for a
text newsgroup.
Perhaps so, but the thing would need a very expensive internet
AIOE's traffic totals are irrelevant to you running your own server.

There's no requirement that your private news server carry every
newsgroup. You can configure your server with just the groups you're
interested in. Likewise, your peers can configure their news feeds to
you to send only articles from the groups you specify. Cross-posting
to newsgroups your server doesn't carry will still work.

Unless someone removed the capability since I last did stuff like this,
your peer's news server can accumulate news between times you connect.
So you connect, download what's new there, upload what's new at your
end, and disconnect whenever and however often you choose.

HTH,
-WBE
Grant Taylor
2021-03-16 00:07:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Winston
Unless someone removed the capability since I last did stuff like this,
your peer's news server can accumulate news between times you connect.
That is still correct.
Post by Winston
So you connect, download what's new there, upload what's new at your
end, and disconnect whenever and however often you choose.
Yep.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Steve
2021-03-14 12:47:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 13 Mar 2021 20:28:00 -0700, Grant Taylor wrote:
[...]
Post by Grant Taylor
Server operators are free to run their server however /they/ want to.
They are not beholden to users. Especially users that won't provide an
explanation of why they need a functionality.
In fact, the only class of people that I see argue vehemently without
providing an explanation are quite often people abusing the very thing
that has been limited.
Bingo.
Absurd Burd
2021-03-14 11:34:43 UTC
Permalink
If this nonsense is not stopped I will abandon this server entirely.
Goodbye then, we'll miss you.

--
Absurd Burd <https://tinyurl.com/ht3733er>
s|b
2021-03-23 16:52:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
If this nonsense is not stopped I
will abandon this server entirely.
I agree. AND you should ask for a refund!
--
s|b
Aioe
2021-03-17 17:25:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
That's what I'm saying.
I unfortunately do not have the time to respond to all these messages so
I am forced to make a summary.

In recent times there have been several floods of nonsense messages that
have targeted many groups in the alt.* hierarchy.

Since spam filters are unable to distinguish these messages from good
ones, the only way to stop these floods is to close a group for posting
when it receives too many messages. This strategy is rudimentary but has
proven to work: if my users usually post 5 messages per day to a certain
group and 50 are posted in a day, they are a flood. On the one hand this
prevents even legitimate users from posting but on the other hand this
protects the group from floods sent through my server.

Crosspost is an easy way to circumvent this strategy. On the one hand,
the crosspost allows the attacker to multiply the target groups of the
flood using the same number of messages because a single post will be
shown on several groups. On the other hand, crosspost allows the
attacker to multiply the number of messages he can post through my
server before a group is closed.

At this point, my priority is to protect usenet users from floods, the
crosspost ban is for that. I agree that the crosspost ban is not a good
thing but at the moment it is a necessary cost. It will be removed as
soon as possible.
G. Singh
2021-03-17 21:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
Post by G. Singh
That's what I'm saying.
I unfortunately do not have the time to respond to all these messages so
I am forced to make a summary.
In recent times there have been several floods of nonsense messages that
have targeted many groups in the alt.* hierarchy.
Since spam filters are unable to distinguish these messages from good
ones, the only way to stop these floods is to close a group for posting
when it receives too many messages. This strategy is rudimentary but has
proven to work: if my users usually post 5 messages per day to a certain
group and 50 are posted in a day, they are a flood. On the one hand this
prevents even legitimate users from posting but on the other hand this
protects the group from floods sent through my server.
Crosspost is an easy way to circumvent this strategy. On the one hand,
the crosspost allows the attacker to multiply the target groups of the
flood using the same number of messages because a single post will be
shown on several groups. On the other hand, crosspost allows the
attacker to multiply the number of messages he can post through my
server before a group is closed.
At this point, my priority is to protect usenet users from floods, the
crosspost ban is for that. I agree that the crosspost ban is not a good
thing but at the moment it is a necessary cost. It will be removed as
soon as possible.
Did the thought of an IP ban not occur to you? If this is a single
miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their ISP to post until they
get bored and wander away will cause less collateral damage, by far.

Also, is there really *no* pattern of content in their messages that is
filterable? No commonality to them except origin, and crossposting to
multiple alt groups, and I suppose (or how would you know they were a
flood and not just traffic) large numbers sent in a shortish time?
Steve
2021-03-18 10:11:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Aioe
Post by G. Singh
That's what I'm saying.
I unfortunately do not have the time to respond to all these messages so
I am forced to make a summary.
In recent times there have been several floods of nonsense messages that
have targeted many groups in the alt.* hierarchy.
Since spam filters are unable to distinguish these messages from good
ones, the only way to stop these floods is to close a group for posting
when it receives too many messages. This strategy is rudimentary but has
proven to work: if my users usually post 5 messages per day to a certain
group and 50 are posted in a day, they are a flood. On the one hand this
prevents even legitimate users from posting but on the other hand this
protects the group from floods sent through my server.
Crosspost is an easy way to circumvent this strategy. On the one hand,
the crosspost allows the attacker to multiply the target groups of the
flood using the same number of messages because a single post will be
shown on several groups. On the other hand, crosspost allows the
attacker to multiply the number of messages he can post through my
server before a group is closed.
At this point, my priority is to protect usenet users from floods, the
crosspost ban is for that. I agree that the crosspost ban is not a good
thing but at the moment it is a necessary cost. It will be removed as
soon as possible.
Did the thought of an IP ban not occur to you?
VPNs are used to get round the 40 post limit. How do you ban all the VPN
IPs?

If this is a single
Post by G. Singh
miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their ISP to post until they
get bored and wander away will cause less collateral damage, by far.
You're not bored yet, are you?
Post by G. Singh
Also, is there really *no* pattern of content in their messages that is
filterable? No commonality to them except origin, and crossposting to
multiple alt groups, and I suppose (or how would you know they were a
flood and not just traffic) large numbers sent in a shortish time?
No.
G. Singh
2021-03-18 17:21:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
If this is a single miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their
ISP to post until they get bored and wander away will cause less
collateral damage, by far.
You're not bored yet, are you?
Are you insinuating that I have something to do with what's going on here?

...

Nagdea (sp?) was right. You really are a kook.

In any case, the sorts of measures I suggested (short duration IP blocks,
etc.) seem to work for Wikipedia to deter and demotivate disruptive editors
there. I would be surprised if disruptive griefers on Usenet were not
basically the same as disruptive griefers on Wikipedia, psychologically, in
which case measures effective for one should be effective for both.

Maybe they'd even be effective on *you*, to get you to do something more
constructive than hijacking every single thread here to grind your axe
about your bogeyman Derby-whatsit.
Sn!pe
2021-03-18 18:18:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
If this is a single miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their
ISP to post until they get bored and wander away will cause less
collateral damage, by far.
You're not bored yet, are you?
Are you insinuating that I have something to do with what's going on here?
...
Nagdea (sp?) was right. You really are a kook.
In any case, the sorts of measures I suggested (short duration IP blocks,
etc.) seem to work for Wikipedia to deter and demotivate disruptive editors
there. I would be surprised if disruptive griefers on Usenet were not
basically the same as disruptive griefers on Wikipedia, psychologically, in
which case measures effective for one should be effective for both.
Maybe they'd even be effective on *you*, to get you to do something more
constructive than hijacking every single thread here to grind your axe
about your bogeyman Derby-whatsit.
You're very silly, Paul. Give it up.
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
G. Singh
2021-03-19 22:20:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sn!pe
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
If this is a single miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their
ISP to post until they get bored and wander away will cause less
collateral damage, by far.
You're not bored yet, are you?
Are you insinuating that I have something to do with what's going on here?
...
Nagdea (sp?) was right. You really are a kook.
In any case, the sorts of measures I suggested (short duration IP blocks,
etc.) seem to work for Wikipedia to deter and demotivate disruptive editors
there. I would be surprised if disruptive griefers on Usenet were not
basically the same as disruptive griefers on Wikipedia, psychologically, in
which case measures effective for one should be effective for both.
Maybe they'd even be effective on *you*, to get you to do something more
constructive than hijacking every single thread here to grind your axe
about your bogeyman Derby-whatsit.
You're very silly, Paul.
I'm not the one who things "G" stands for "Paul".
Nadegda
2021-03-20 00:57:00 UTC
Permalink
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by G. Singh
Post by Sn!pe
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
If this is a single miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their
ISP to post until they get bored and wander away will cause less
collateral damage, by far.
You're not bored yet, are you?
Are you insinuating that I have something to do with what's going on here?
...
Nagdea (sp?) was right. You really are a kook.
In any case, the sorts of measures I suggested (short duration IP blocks,
etc.) seem to work for Wikipedia to deter and demotivate disruptive editors
there. I would be surprised if disruptive griefers on Usenet were not
basically the same as disruptive griefers on Wikipedia, psychologically, in
which case measures effective for one should be effective for both.
Maybe they'd even be effective on *you*, to get you to do something more
constructive than hijacking every single thread here to grind your axe
about your bogeyman Derby-whatsit.
You're very silly, Paul.
I'm not the one who things "G" stands for "Paul".
SPANKY-SPANKY!

<snicker>
--
FNVWe Nadegda

"By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with
you." -- Mike Godwin, Aug 13, 2017, 8:03 PM
Checkmate admits that, for all intents and purposes, he carries a teddy
bear in public: <***@news.alt.net>
Steve
2021-03-18 20:38:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
If this is a single miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their
ISP to post until they get bored and wander away will cause less
collateral damage, by far.
You're not bored yet, are you?
Are you insinuating that I have something to do with what's going on here?
No, I'm saying arsewits on usenet don't necessarily get bored and stop. You
have been playing your silly game for umpteen years and still aren't
bored with it. Pretty sad and a waste of your life.
Post by G. Singh
Nagdea (sp?) was right. You really are a kook.
Where did he say that? Not in his post here. One sock not knowing what the
other one wrote and where?
Do try to keep up.
Post by G. Singh
In any case, the sorts of measures I suggested (short duration IP blocks,
etc.) seem to work for Wikipedia to deter and demotivate disruptive editors
there. I would be surprised if disruptive griefers on Usenet were not
basically the same as disruptive griefers on Wikipedia, psychologically, in
which case measures effective for one should be effective for both.
Maybe they'd even be effective on *you*, to get you to do something more
constructive than hijacking every single thread here to grind your axe
about your bogeyman Derby-whatsit.
If Derbyshite poasts weren't so obviously Derbyshite, I wouldn't notice
them.
Nadegda
2021-03-18 21:06:29 UTC
Permalink
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
Post by Steve
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
If this is a single miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their
ISP to post until they get bored and wander away will cause less
collateral damage, by far.
You're not bored yet, are you?
Are you insinuating that I have something to do with what's going on here?
No, I'm saying arsewits on usenet don't necessarily get bored and stop. You
have been playing your silly game for umpteen years and still aren't
bored with it. Pretty sad and a waste of your life.
The problem with your argument is that your hallucinations, delusions, or
whatever-they-are are not evidence of fuck-all about the behavior of real
world Usenetizens (except, maybe, yourself).
Post by Steve
Post by G. Singh
Nagdea (sp?) was right. You really are a kook.
Where did he
She
Post by Steve
say that?
One sock not<SMACKAKOOK!>
The only sockpuppeteer in this thread is Sn!pe, and temporarily switching
off my killfile confirms that he's using at least 2 socks in it and maybe
more.
Post by Steve
Post by G. Singh
In any case, the sorts of measures I suggested (short duration IP blocks,
etc.) seem to work for Wikipedia to deter and demotivate disruptive editors
there. I would be surprised if disruptive griefers on Usenet were not
basically the same as disruptive griefers on Wikipedia, psychologically, in
which case measures effective for one should be effective for both.
Maybe they'd even be effective on *you*, to get you to do something more
constructive than hijacking every single thread here to grind your axe
about your bogeyman Derby-whatsit.
If Derbyshite poasts weren't so obviously Derbyshite, I wouldn't notice
them.
Be that as it may, no law compels you to kick up a public fuss and hijack
a tech support thread every time you hallucinate "Derbyshire poasts". That
is something you do of your own free will, kooky. And you and your equally
addled buddy Sn!pe then have the nerve to accuse *other* people of net
abuse ...

And in the interest of limiting the damage, fu2 set to somewhere more
appropriate for the both of you.
--
FNVWe Nadegda

"By all means, compare these shitheads to Nazis. Again and again. I'm with
you." -- Mike Godwin, Aug 13, 2017, 8:03 PM
Checkmate admits that, for all intents and purposes, he carries a teddy
bear in public: <***@news.alt.net>
Steve
2021-03-18 22:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nadegda
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
[...]
Post by Nadegda
Post by Steve
Where did he
She
You tease. Get 'em out for the lads!
Sn!pe
2021-03-18 22:09:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
Post by Nadegda
Time to trigger the right-wing snowflakes again. Melt, snowflakes, melt!
[...]
Post by Nadegda
Post by Steve
Where did he
She
You tease. Get 'em out for the lads!
[a titter runs around the room]

Boom-boom! ~giggle!~
--
^Ï^ http://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E

My pet rock Gordon just is.
noel
2021-03-20 11:42:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Post by Steve
If this is a single miscreant, temporarily disallowing users of their
ISP to post until they get bored and wander away will cause less
collateral damage, by far.
You're not bored yet, are you?
Are you insinuating that I have something to do with what's going on here?
...
Nagdea (sp?) was right. You really are a kook.
In any case, the sorts of measures I suggested (short duration IP
blocks, etc.) seem to work for Wikipedia to deter and demotivate
disruptive editors there. I would be surprised if disruptive griefers on
Usenet were not basically the same as disruptive griefers on Wikipedia,
psychologically, in which case measures effective for one should be
effective for both.
Maybe they'd even be effective on *you*, to get you to do something more
constructive than hijacking every single thread here to grind your axe
about your bogeyman Derby-whatsit.
As a newsmaster elsewhre I will say this to you "G" ... f u c k o f f
with yuor trolling whinges
G. Singh
2021-03-24 12:15:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by noel
Post by G. Singh
Maybe they'd even be effective on *you*, to get you to do something more
constructive than hijacking every single thread here to grind your axe
about your bogeyman Derby-whatsit.
As a newsmaster elsewhre I will say this to you "G" ... f u c k o f f
with yuor trolling whinges
There are several people in this thread whose contributions are non-
constructive, and either puerile, paranoid, or simply off-topic. I am not
one of them. You are. So take your own advice, disrupter.
Blueshirt
2021-03-18 22:45:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve
VPNs are used to get round the 40 post limit.
Can I butt in to this lively discussion and ask - out of interest - why
the post limit on AIOE was set at 40? As in, why not 50, 100 or 200 etc.
Was it based on server limitations?
Paul
2021-03-19 00:01:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blueshirt
Post by Steve
VPNs are used to get round the 40 post limit.
Can I butt in to this lively discussion and ask - out of interest - why
the post limit on AIOE was set at 40? As in, why not 50, 100 or 200 etc.
Was it based on server limitations?
The spammers would have a field day.

If I could have 1000 posts a day, I could reach 6000 groups
with Nike Shoe adverts. And nobody wants that to happen.
(I pick Nike Shoe adverts, because CleanFeed had that as
an example of what to filter.)

The limit was already raised from 20 to 40, and 40 is plenty.

If you need to post 1000 a day, apply to a server that has
username/password protection. Then you'll be bounced on a
TOS violation, if you do your Nike Shoe adverts there.

If it takes you half an hour to prepare a thoughtful post,
your 40 post limit would take 20 hours to reach, and you
should really get some sleep :-)

Paul
Blueshirt
2021-03-19 00:11:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul
Post by Blueshirt
Can I butt in to this lively discussion and ask - out of interest -
why the post limit on AIOE was set at 40? As in, why not 50, 100 or
200 etc. Was it based on server limitations?
The spammers would have a field day.
The limit was already raised from 20 to 40, and 40 is plenty.
If you need to post 1000 a day, apply to a server that has
username/password protection.
I don't! 40 is plenty. I just wondered why 40. It seemed a very
arbitrary number... especially if it can be circumvented by using a VPN
anyway. So I was thinking was it due to server limitations.
Paul
2021-03-18 05:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
Did the thought of an IP ban not occur to you?
The perp is using a VPN machine-gun.

Let's look at some addresses. This is from the
netfront flood, where netfront shows "real" (mebbe)
addresses.

94.247.241.70 JSC ER-Telecom Holding, St Petersburg, Russian
197.232.21.22 mail.vidic.co.ke, Nairobi, Kenya
201.139.127.6 Kiwi Networks, Cholula, Mexico
85.159.6.20 Private Joint Stock Company, Kharkiv, Ukraine

Notice the (presumed) pattern ?

The packets are coming from a planet called "Earth".

Shall we add all the numbers together, take the
square root and build a filter ? What do you suggest,
oh programming prodigy ?

Surely a person of your eminent skills, collected
an offline image file of the affected group,
and studied it. The one I collected here, was 105,757,667 bytes.

When floods used to come through a certain (rogue)
server years ago, the entire header was forged.
Every bit of it. All it takes is one admin, to
do this, and other admins to peer the rogue.
But the pattern in this case, is probably VPN based.
The rogue server is presumably gone, or not allowing
posting any more, or... whatever.

But this pattern is different, in that it is like
a botnet, but you don't pay $200 to use it. You
pay zero for the service. This means the barrier
to entry, is rather low.

Paul
Aioe
2021-03-18 21:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Also, is there really *no* pattern of content in their messages that is
filterable?
if you find a pattern, the attacker changes his messages to circumvent
it. It's an useless strategy
Grant Taylor
2021-03-18 23:02:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Aioe
if you find a pattern, the attacker changes his messages to circumvent
it.
There was (is?) speculation that the attacker was participating in
various newsgroups masquerading as someone asking how to filter the
flood. Thus learning the defense tactics that s/he needed to overcome.
Post by Aioe
It's an useless strategy
Probably one of the worst Whack-a-Mole games I've seen in a long time.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
G. Singh
2021-04-07 23:12:15 UTC
Permalink
I agree that the crosspost ban is not a good thing but at the moment it is
a necessary cost. It will be removed as soon as possible.
And yet, it wasn't.
OldbieOne
2021-04-10 20:30:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by G. Singh
I agree that the crosspost ban is not a good thing but at the moment it is
a necessary cost. It will be removed as soon as possible.
And yet, it wasn't.
Is crossposting really necessary?

1) This is a free service out of the goodness of AIOE's hearts

2) Crossposting helped create the spam that led to many abandoning USENET
after IAPs started killing USENET services across the globe

3) Unless you're a legitimate news organisation, why would you possibly want
to crosspost unless you're a spammer?


--
OldbieOne
The Guy Who Tells It Like It Is (TM)
Grant Taylor
2021-04-10 20:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by OldbieOne
Is crossposting really necessary?
There are legitimate uses for cross posting.
Post by OldbieOne
1) This is a free service out of the goodness of AIOE's hearts
~chuckle~

I tried telling G. Singh the same thing. It didn't go well. I've since
blocked him from my personal server (super kill file).
Post by OldbieOne
2) Crossposting helped create the spam that led to many abandoning
USENET after IAPs started killing USENET services across the globe
3) Unless you're a legitimate news organisation, why would you possibly
want to crosspost unless you're a spammer?
I fairly frequently cross post to a handful of newsgroups (always single
digits, typically quite low number) with a follow up set to what I
believe to be the primary newsgroup. I do this because it gets
attention from people in the other newsgroups and funnels the replies to
one location. It's decidedly better than multiple completely
independent and non-related posts.

Cross posting can be and often is a useful feature. It's too easy to
abuse it though.

I believe that cleanfeed, a typical NNTP spam filter, counts the number
of newsgroups that articles went to and the number of groups that relies
will go to. If the number is too high, the article gets filtered. (I
don't remember the exact algorithm, but it's some simple math thereon.)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
OldbieOne
2021-04-10 21:06:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
Post by OldbieOne
Is crossposting really necessary?
There are legitimate uses for cross posting.
Post by OldbieOne
1) This is a free service out of the goodness of AIOE's hearts
~chuckle~
I tried telling G. Singh the same thing. It didn't go well. I've since
blocked him from my personal server (super kill file).
Post by OldbieOne
2) Crossposting helped create the spam that led to many abandoning
USENET after IAPs started killing USENET services across the globe
3) Unless you're a legitimate news organisation, why would you possibly
want to crosspost unless you're a spammer?
I fairly frequently cross post to a handful of newsgroups (always single
digits, typically quite low number) with a follow up set to what I
believe to be the primary newsgroup. I do this because it gets
attention from people in the other newsgroups and funnels the replies to
one location. It's decidedly better than multiple completely
independent and non-related posts.
Cross posting can be and often is a useful feature. It's too easy to
abuse it though.
I believe that cleanfeed, a typical NNTP spam filter, counts the number
of newsgroups that articles went to and the number of groups that relies
will go to. If the number is too high, the article gets filtered. (I
don't remember the exact algorithm, but it's some simple math thereon.)
Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I never really thought much about
legitimate crossposting. I can't honestly say I've ever done that, even from
back in the early 90's and my first foray into newsgroups.

Even though you *could* crosspost, it was always kinda frowned on.

Guess I should move with the times ;)
Grant Taylor
2021-04-10 21:30:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by OldbieOne
Actually, that makes a lot of sense. I never really thought much about
legitimate crossposting. I can't honestly say I've ever done that,
even from back in the early 90's and my first foray into newsgroups.
;-)
Post by OldbieOne
Even though you *could* crosspost, it was always kinda frowned on.
Cross posting is considered by most to be faux pa and something to be
avoided, much like the Reply-to-All option on email.

I consider that both cross positing and reply-to-all /do/ have their
place and /can/ be useful when done so judiciously.
Post by OldbieOne
Guess I should move with the times ;)
Make your own decision and go with it. I'm sure someone will have an
opinion that differs and someone else will have an opinion that agrees.
You can't make /everyone/ happy, so make yourself happy.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
Blueshirt
2021-04-11 10:07:37 UTC
Permalink
You can't make everyone happy, so make yourself happy.
That should be the motto of usenet.
OldbieOne
2021-04-12 17:36:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blueshirt
You can't make everyone happy, so make yourself happy.
That should be the motto of usenet
Agreed, LOL!
.
noel
2021-04-14 04:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Blueshirt
You can't make everyone happy, so make yourself happy.
That should be the motto of usenet.
lol :)

Grant Taylor
2021-04-12 18:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Grant Taylor
You can't make /everyone/ happy, so make yourself happy.
I was summarizing / paraphrasing one of Aesop's Fables, specifically The
Man, the Boy, and the Donkey. I remember first hearing this as a kid
many years ago.

--8<--
A Man and his son were once going with their Donkey to market. As they
were walking along by its side a countryman passed them and said: “You
fools, what is a Donkey for but to ride upon?”

So the Man put the Boy on the Donkey and they went on their way. But
soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: “See that lazy
youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides.”

So the Man ordered his Boy to get off, and got on himself. But they
hadn’t gone far when they passed two women, one of whom said to the
other: “Shame on that lazy lout to let his poor little son trudge along.”

Well, the Man didn’t know what to do, but at last he took his Boy up
before him on the Donkey. By this time they had come to the town, and
the passers-by began to jeer and point at them. The Man stopped and
asked what they were scoffing at. The men said: “Aren’t you ashamed of
yourself for overloading that poor donkey of yours and your hulking son?”

The Man and Boy got off and tried to think what to do. They thought and
they thought, till at last they cut down a pole, tied the donkey’s feet
to it, and raised the pole and the donkey to their shoulders. They went
along amid the laughter of all who met them till they came to Market
Bridge, when the Donkey, getting one of his feet loose, kicked out and
caused the Boy to drop his end of the pole. In the struggle the Donkey
fell over the bridge, and his fore-feet being tied together he was drowned.

“That will teach you,” said an old man who had followed them:

“Please all, and you will please none.”
-->8--
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
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